No subject

ly it's not news, it's confirming that nothing has changed.(still good, thi=
s is still better then when they would have binned it :-) )"=20

Yes, it's just good to hear ANYTHING. Silence could mean anything, "No ETA"=
 means that at least they haven't scrapped it yet.=20

"I also think EPIC will not put any resources in recoding a buggy version o=
f UT3 to a Linux/Mac version untill they are 'sure' to have a solid UT3 ver=
sion. Else they would have to maintain multiple versions(Windows/Consoles/V=
alve/Linux/Mac/'not-sure-which-versions-are-promised') of UT3, and testing =
them all too."=20

This is possibly a perfectly good point. It could be that the Linux binary =
has been done for quite a while now and ready to go but Epic wanted to wait=
 to release it until the expansion pack comes out (basically UT3's UT2004).=
=20

"About your 1) you almost sound like a salesman, forgetting the details whe=
n it's convenient, patches followed up a bit more rapidly then you stated, =
you only stated the final patches."=20

And that was intentional. I don't really presume to know much about the inn=
er working of Epic's business, however I do understand that they have hundr=
eds of licensees they have to support, two game franchises, three subsidiar=
ies they have to manage, etc. They are not the small company that made Unre=
al/UT or the only slightly larger company that made UT2003/UT2004. They hav=
e A LOT more going on in their business model than they did before, and rea=
lly this only helps to explain the time between patches for UT3 (let alone =
that they are now supporting three platforms for it). I'm happy that they a=
re continuing support at all. The way they've been treated over it, they co=
uld have just abandoned it and moved on to something else.=20

Brizz=20

On 2/9/09 2:24 PM, [FnG] Lambik wrote:=20


"And this discussion between you and I here has little, if not nothing, to =
do with the Linux binaries, so I'm not sure why you are even bringing them =
up in that respect"=20
As I see the complaints about the linux binary is basicly the support EPIC =
is giving(not or verly little), and that is not only linux related, but on =
UT3 in general.=20

I understand you can't give a timeline, you're only working with info hande=
d to you, fair enough.=20
Still that information is still the same as we got a year ago :S, so basicl=
y it's not news, it's confirming that nothing has changed.(still good, this=
 is still better then when they would have binned it :-) )=20
I also think EPIC will not put any resources in recoding a buggy version of=
 UT3 to a Linux/Mac version untill they are 'sure' to have a solid UT3 vers=
ion. Else they would have to maintain multiple versions(Windows/Consoles/Va=
lve/Linux/Mac/'not-sure-which-versions-are-promised') of UT3, and testing t=
hem all too.=20
It is weird that they don't have a planning yet on when the linux binary wi=
ll see the light, they will atleast have a planning like 'not this year' or=
 'we start after the massive patch with recoding', but nothing of the kind.=
 Sorry, but I am not very possitive about this.=20

About your 1) you almost sound like a salesman, forgetting the details when=
 it's convenient, patches followed up a bit more rapidly then you stated, y=
ou only stated the final patches.=20
but you're right that has nothing to do with the linuxbinary discussion, so=
rry for that.=20

Lambik=20

PS. You do type a lot faster then I do :P=20



On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Sir Brizz < sir.brizz at gmail.com > wrote:=20



You obviously had no intention to read my last email, right?=20

1) No, it's not what you mentioned at all. Unreal never had all it's proble=
ms fixed, UT came out by the time that happened (only 18 months later) :p U=
T2003, as well, never had final patch that fixed all of it's problems, UT20=
04 came out before that (roughly 18 months later). Now, we are getting a pa=
tch which, after all the most major bugs have ALREADY been fixed, fixes alm=
ost every single complaint people have with the game ROUGHLY 18 MONTHS LATE=
R. What has seriously changed here?=20

2) My point with my second statement is that the demo should have told you =
all the story you needed to know. If you couldn't have been more unhappy wi=
th the demo, why did you buy the game? They couldn't have fixed the thinga =
that made you unhappy in Two Weeks (tm).=20

RC7 doesn't prove anything, as I said before it could have been a manufactu=
ring mishap for all you know.=20

And this discussion between you and I here has little, if not nothing, to d=
o with the Linux binaries, so I'm not sure why you are even bringing them u=
p in that respect.=20

I can't give you a timeline, all Steve said was that it is still being work=
ed on and he has no ETA. I'm personally just happy to know that they haven'=
t binned it after all this time. I wasn't being vague, I was passing along =
information.=20

Brizz=20



On 2/9/09 1:37 PM, [FnG] Lambik wrote:=20


You do copy well Sir Brizz ;)=20

1) that is exactly what I also mentioned, but thanks anyway=20
{In the past EPIC had released UT versions which at start had problems, per=
formance, bugs, etc, but they did fix the urgent matters within weeks, and =
the other stuff after a few months}=20
2) this is no more info then 1) already displaying, what is your point with=
 statement 2) ?=20

The RC7 thing proves it's a rush job, but that isn't the big issue, it's th=
e support afterwards, like ~ 1=C2=BD year later a massive patch is planned =
:(=20

Again the mentioned 'massive patch' doesn't say if the linux server will be=
 released, not even to mention the linux/Mac client.=20
The server side has been supported for linux, I am wondering will it be rel=
eased at the same time or again ~ week later.=20

[quote "Sir Brizz"]I thought some of you might like to know that Steve Polg=
e just contacted me and told me that the Linux binary has not been abandone=
d.[\quote]=20
;-) You sound like EPIC, just as vague. If you are in contact with him, cou=
ld you ask him to be a bit more specific on the "when" ?=20
Because that is the real question here, but ofcourse you do know that.=20

Please take your time reading, that saves communication :P=20

Lambik=20


On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sir Brizz < sir.brizz at gmail.com > wrote:=20



I'd say you had plenty of indications that the game was not going to live u=
 to your expectations.=20

1) Epic has always had subpar releases of Unreal games on the first install=
ment of an engine version. See: Unreal, UT2003/Unreal 2.=20
2) The demo was released only a couple of weeks before the game went gold. =
They couldn't possibly have improved it much in that time.=20

There are even more than that but those are simply the key things you could=
 have looked at before buying the game.=20

As for it being "RC7", what is that supposed to prove? RC stands for Releas=
e Candidate, so no matter what they released it would have been a release c=
andidate. If you're talking about the labeling on the meta info of the disc=
, are you sure that wasn't a manufacturing mishap? :p=20

If you look at the patch notes for the massive patch that they are releasin=
g soon, you'll see that Epic HAS been listening to feedback all this time, =
despite what the pessimists in the community would have everyone believe. E=
pic has always listened to constructive feedback on their games (at least U=
T) and this patch proves they still do, the people that are complaining now=
 are the ones who didn't give any constructive feedback so their voices wer=
en't heard.=20

Brizz=20



On 2/9/09 12:08 PM, [FnG] Lambik wrote:=20


[quote "Sir Brizz"]They delivered a functional game. If you bought it the w=
ay it was packaged, you have no one to blame but yourself if it disappoints=
 you.[\quote]=20

It's not only the linux community, but the wide spread of PC gamers are com=
plaining about the support that EPIC has shown the past year.=20
The product which was released was not finished, infact I bought a S.E. ver=
sion which was actualy the RC.7 :S=20
I did not buy it to play it on linux, but even the windows version was not =
the quality we as UT community are use to.=20
In the past EPIC had released UT versions which at start had problems, perf=
ormance, bugs, etc, but they did fix the urgent matters within weeks, and t=
he other stuff after a few months.=20
That is what this community was expecting with this release too, giving sup=
port, using the feedback we as UT ppl were supplying to improve the game,=
=20
giving the ppl the sense they are part of the process.=20

When you take a look at how many servers that are running and being used, c=
ompare that with any other game of the same level, then EPIC should be asha=
med.=20
A successor of UT2k4 should atleast contain the same functionality.=20

So in short to Sir Brizz, yes we are only to blame but ourselfes . The fact=
 remains that we are entitled to spread the word that EPIC has failed to ke=
ep their promise,=20
that they have let down our trust, that our advise is not to buy the game.=
=20
You may call it complaining, I see it as warning other users for the bad qu=
ality game EPIC has created.=20

EPIC has proven the following :=20
"Results of the past are never a guarentee for the future"=20

just my 2 cts,=20

Lambik=20

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:45 PM, < ceil420 at gmail.com > wrote:=20


Well I'm tired of you acting as though Linux users that bought the game jus=
t did so with no promise of functionality in their platform of choice. They=
 were led to believe they would be able to play the game on Linux at or sho=
rtly after release. The blame for the wasted money may be 80% on the player=
s, but Epic themselves also shoulder some of that blame. Especially conside=
ring their history of Tux-friendliness; particularly with this line of game=
s. This isn't Blizzard or EA we're talking about, but a company known to su=
pport. Linux with past titles, and one that promised playability with the l=
atest as well.=20

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=20


-----Original Message-----=20
From: Sir Brizz < sir.brizz at gmail.com >=20



Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:38:25=20
To: < ut3 at icculus.org >=20
Subject: Re: [ut3] Official release date=20

Fair enough, My response to your message wasn't really intended to=20
target you. I can completely understand people buying the game with the=20
expectation that the client would get released, I just wish people on=20
here would use a little more brain power instead of just slapping the=20
blame on Epic as if they had no involvement in the decision making=20
process at all.=20

Brizz=20

On 2/6/09 11:32 AM, David L. Willson wrote:=20
> I didn't personally buy the game, but I understand the motivation of thos=
e that did. It's important to show approval for ISV's that are allowing the=
ir customers freedom of choice. The best way to show that approval is to bu=
y their stuph. I think it's important to wait until the cross-platform goal=
 is achieved, but I understand the desire to reward Epic's promise or inten=
t. I wanted to, too, but because I've been in software a while, I thought i=
t better to wait and reward achievement.=20
>=20
> David L. Willson=20
> Network Engineer=20
> MCT, MCSE, Linux+=20
> tel://720.333.LANS=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Sir Brizz"< sir.brizz at gmail.com >=20
> To: ut3 at icculus.org=20
> Sent: Friday, February 6, 2009 11:26:53 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain=
=20
> Subject: Re: [ut3] Official release date=20
>=20
> Well, this post:=20
>=20
> http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=3D584654=20
>=20
> Was made 5 days before the game shipped, and indicates that the Linux bin=
ary was not ready (something that could have easily been inferred from othe=
r forum posts around the same time).=20
>=20
> And, I'm sorry if you're trusting, but, frankly, the Linux binary could c=
ome out in 5 years and they wouldn't have lied. They never gave a timeline,=
 and if you assumed that it was about to be released, you were fooling your=
self into it.=20
>=20
> I agree that the binary should be out by now, but I'm not involved in Epi=
c's business so I don't know what is holding it back. Recent posts by Ryan =
Gordon suggest that the binary is practically (if not completely) done, but=
 it's likely stuck behind the same legal hurdle that it was before. What is=
 Epic meant to do about that?=20
>=20
> And it just doesn't change the fact that Epic didn't do anything but give=
 you consolation that a binary would come out at some future point, and bas=
ed on that you made the decision to buy the game. You still bought the game=
 knowing that what you were buying it for did not exist yet. That was your =
decision, not Epic's.=20
>=20
> Brizz=20
>=20
> On 2/6/09 11:20 AM, David L. Willson wrote:=20
>=20
> There's that fine line again, Brizz. Epic (your car dealer) didn't say "s=
hould be". They said, originally, that it "would be" in the box. Then just =
before release they said, "OK, it's not going to make it into the box, but =
it will be released." Not "should be", but "will be". Which led some trusti=
ng souls to buy the game on faith, led other, less trusting souls to wait, =
and then led trusting and non-trusting souls alike, to, at some point, say,=
 "Well, what the ~fuck~, Epic?"=20
>=20
> David L. Willson=20
> Network Engineer=20
> MCT, MCSE, Linux+=20
> tel://720.333.LANS=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: ceil420 at gmail.com To: ut3 at icculus.org Sent: Friday, February 6, 200=
9 11:16:02 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain=20
> Subject: Re: [ut3] Official release date=20
>=20
> Except that we originally weren't told 'in the future'. The dealer told u=
s the GPS was included. The dealer lied. At least admit _that_ much.=20
>=20
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=20
>=20
>=20
> From : Sir Brizz=20
> Date : Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:08:33 -0700=20
> To :< ut3 at icculus.org > Subject : Re: [ut3] Official release date=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes, Linux is not suitable for games. Actually, Linux is fine for games, =
games are simply not made for Linux. So if you're a PC gamer, anything but =
Windows is not a choice (and if you say Wine works great, I'll slap you).=
=20
>=20
> Now, I do have to admit a little guilt in responding here, because I knew=
 all you guys like to bitch and moan anytime someone comes in here that doe=
sn't agree with you, but sorry. The reality of this situation is that you a=
re bitter and want to blame someone other than yourselves. This is really m=
ore like if you called up the dealership, asked if the car had GPS, told no=
 but it should be released free at some point in the future, bought the car=
 anyway and then proceeded to complain that the GPS was still not out after=
 a year. You bought the car despite the fact that it was missing the one th=
ing you wanted it for, you're the one to blame in that scenario.=20
>=20
> Brizz=20
>=20
> On 2/6/09 10:39 AM, [FnG] Lambik wrote:=20
>=20
>=20
> The person that told 'It has GPS in it' happens to be the salesperson, an=
d then yes you can expect to have GPS in it !=20
> Not sure what kind of point you're trying to make, but seems to me your o=
nly business here is to stir thing up,=20
> as you have state to play games on windows only.(Linux not suitable ??)=
=20
> Pre ordering a game has the risk of getting something that isn't quite wh=
at you expect of it, but in this case there has been promised support for l=
inux OS aswell.=20
> Epic has the reputation to support linux on all UT series, which has form=
ed a good basis of trust, which they have broken, and that is why ppl are u=
pset with EPIC.=20
> That is something they have every right to.=20
>=20
> Lambik=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Sir Brizz< sir.brizz at gmail.com > wrote:=
=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> For what? They didn't market UT3 as having Linux binaries included or ava=
ilable.=20
>=20
> The problem here is that Epic never guaranteed anything. I appreciate you=
 wanting brand new boxes or whatever your case may be, however that doesn't=
 change the fact that you bought something that didn't include the sole thi=
ng you bought it for. Can you imagine, taking this same thing to a more ter=
rible and surely less appropriate analogy, if you bought a car because some=
one said it had GPS in it, never test drove it, and realized after purchasi=
ng it that it didn't have GPS in it? Would you blame the person who told yo=
u or yourself for not looking into it more?=20
>=20
> I understand that people wanted and were expecting and (possibly) promise=
d Linux binaries and are upset, but, frankly, you DON'T have anyone to blam=
e but yourself if you paid the money for it already. Did Epic make you spen=
d that money? YOU were encouraged by what they said, YOU made a decision, a=
nd YOU spent the money.=20
>=20
> Brizz=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2/6/09 10:14 AM, Luiz Gustavo Angelo wrote:=20
>=20
> Epic could be sued by this, couldn't ??=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Matthias Bach< marix at marix.org > wrote:=
=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi!=20
>=20
>=20
> On Friday 06 February 2009 17:57:02 Sir Brizz wrote:=20
>=20
> And for those of you whining about how you bought the game and haven't=20
> played it because there is no Linux client, sorry but maybe you should=20
> have waited to buy it until there actually was the only thing you were=20
> buying it for? That seems like the practical thing to do in any=20
> situation. You are missing the point. When I ordered the game there had b=
een a statement=20
> by Epic that there would be a Linux-Installer on disc, as it had been wit=
h=20
> 2K4. Later they said it wouldn't be on disk, but available on the day of=
=20
> release. Therefore, as I kind of like to have nice game boxes that I can =
show=20
> of, I did not bother to cancel my preorder. The problem is that I trusted=
 Epic=20
> to keep to their promises.=20
>=20
> Did you buy Prey the day it came out hoping that Ryan Gordon=20
> would release a Linux binary for it, too? No I didn't, because nobody pro=
mised that Prey would be ported. When it=20
> finally was ported this was a pleasent surprise.=20
>=20
> If you want to be a thrifty=20
> consumer, then be thrifty. And if you aren't thrifty, don't whine that=20
> you made a mistake and try to blame it on Epic or anyone else. You don't=
=20
> have anyone to blame but yourselves. Maybe I have, but then it is not for=
 expecting Epic to make a port, but for=20
> trusting Epic to deliver the software I ordered.=20
>=20
> Personally, I'm sure a Linux binary will eventually come out for UT3 and=
=20
> when it does I will probably use it. Maybe it will, after all it's alread=
y supposed to be done. The real question=20
> is, will their still body to play against. Will the engine still be somet=
hing=20
> competitive to base your mods on? By the time it will probably take one c=
ould=20
> just as well start writing an own engine ...=20
>=20
> Regards,=20
> Matthias=20
>=20
> ---=20
> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to ut3-unsubscribe at icculus.org=20
> Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?64=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


---=20
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to ut3-unsubscribe at icculus.org=20
Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?64=20