From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 04:28:00 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:28:00 +0200 Subject: New Raytracing Patch II Message-ID: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> I just finished a new version that produces better bytecode. The code is also better to read because I abstracted away most of the emit-calls into classes ? la Float, Float2, etc. I also gave SIMD-code generation a shot, but it resulted in no speedup at all and made the code difficult to be followed. So there's only the scalar shading pipeline included ... Patch is available from here: http://www.file-upload.net/download-760882/rtpatch1270.zip.html Comments and test reports are appreciated! :-) Stephan 2008/3/30, Stephan Reiter : > > So, I have been working the past few weeks to get rid of some > shortcomings of the older raytracing patch and present to you a new patch > with the following features: > > Rapdio 0.7: > - Restructured code, respects C++ RAII idiom and separates scene > management from the acceleration structure through templates (next version > will feature BIH and Grid as replacements for the BVH, BIH should yield > better results in the ioquake3 environment). > - Rewritten kd-tree builder, does not depend on openmp to utilize all > cores (although openmp allows speeding up some parts of the process) > > rt-ioquake3: > - Runtime code generation for shaders using the LLVM: this is blazingly > fast and does not require GCC to be installed anymore! > - SIMD code is not generated yet, expect lower performance due to use of > scalar code only. > - Support for reflections in Elite Force has been removed. We should think > about adding new keywords to the Q3 shader language for raytraced effects. > > Some notes regarding compilation: > - Code is based on revision 1270. > - Rapido is not built with the ioquake3 makefile - build it manually in > code/rapido > - Get the latest version of the LLVM from their Subversion repository, svn > co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/llvm/trunk llvm > - Expect a crash under Mac OS X: I know there is a bug in the kd-tree > builder, but I haven't been able to locate until now. Maybe someone else is > more lucky and could help, which I would appreciate A LOT! > - Lightmaps are not sampled yet. > > Stephan > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 06:07:44 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 12:07:44 +0200 Subject: New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <135ebb010804010307i46589c3eqa9a99f187a1952e7@mail.gmail.com> Try this address please: http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/3030f43f96_0.08MB Don't know why but the file-upload link is not working. Stephan 2008/4/1, Stephan Reiter : > > I just finished a new version that produces better bytecode. The code is > also better to read because I abstracted away most of the emit-calls into > classes ? la Float, Float2, etc. > > I also gave SIMD-code generation a shot, but it resulted in no speedup at > all and made the code difficult to be followed. So there's only the scalar > shading pipeline included ... > > Patch is available from here: > http://www.file-upload.net/download-760882/rtpatch1270.zip.html > > Comments and test reports are appreciated! :-) > Stephan > > 2008/3/30, Stephan Reiter : > > > > So, I have been working the past few weeks to get rid of some > > shortcomings of the older raytracing patch and present to you a new patch > > with the following features: > > > > Rapdio 0.7: > > - Restructured code, respects C++ RAII idiom and separates scene > > management from the acceleration structure through templates (next version > > will feature BIH and Grid as replacements for the BVH, BIH should yield > > better results in the ioquake3 environment). > > - Rewritten kd-tree builder, does not depend on openmp to utilize all > > cores (although openmp allows speeding up some parts of the process) > > > > rt-ioquake3: > > - Runtime code generation for shaders using the LLVM: this is blazingly > > fast and does not require GCC to be installed anymore! > > - SIMD code is not generated yet, expect lower performance due to use of > > scalar code only. > > - Support for reflections in Elite Force has been removed. We should > > think about adding new keywords to the Q3 shader language for raytraced > > effects. > > > > Some notes regarding compilation: > > - Code is based on revision 1270. > > - Rapido is not built with the ioquake3 makefile - build it manually in > > code/rapido > > - Get the latest version of the LLVM from their Subversion repository, svn > > co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/llvm/trunk llvm > > - Expect a crash under Mac OS X: I know there is a bug in the kd-tree > > builder, but I haven't been able to locate until now. Maybe someone else is > > more lucky and could help, which I would appreciate A LOT! > > - Lightmaps are not sampled yet. > > > > Stephan > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Tue Apr 1 07:01:27 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:01:27 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Re: New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <135ebb010804010307i46589c3eqa9a99f187a1952e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> <135ebb010804010307i46589c3eqa9a99f187a1952e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F21607.5020902@timedoctor.org> http://ioquake3.org/files/rtpatch1270.zip Mirrored to avoid the weird file thing. Thanks Stephan! -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 13:37:40 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:37:40 +0200 Subject: Mac-compatible RT Patch Message-ID: Finally got it working on the Mac! Some screenshots showing IoQuake3-rt in action: http://picasaweb.google.at/stephan.reiter/IoQuake3RaytracedOnTheMac . The framerate is pretty low, my Macbook (Core 1 Duo, 1.83Ghz) obviously can't handle realtime raytracing. Patch: http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/0fb3f0f0f0_0.08MB (Zachary: Thanks for mirroring the other patch! Could you replace the old file with the new one from the upper link?) Now I call this mission accomplished! :-) Now I got to prepare a talk I will hold in two weeks and get busy writing my thesis. I'm also considering to submit a poster proposal to this years symposium on interactive raytracing (http://www.sci.utah.edu/rt08/). Stephan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Tue Apr 1 20:01:32 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:01:32 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Mac-compatible RT Patch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F2CCDC.8000202@timedoctor.org> Stephan Reiter wrote: > (Zachary: Thanks for mirroring the other patch! Could you replace the > old file with the new one from the upper link?) Done, I'll write up another news post about the updates when I get back from work tonight. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From benikaj at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:25:27 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:25:27 -0500 Subject: [quake3] semi automatic installer builds In-Reply-To: <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47F407D7.6090705@gmail.com> Zachary Slater wrote: > Ludwig Nussel wrote: >> So, that's it from my side. Any feedback whether this service is >> useful and is worth continuing or whether I should better >> concentrate on things I'm actually paid for is welcome ;-) > > Yes to working on this more. > > First person to write me a nice SAFE cronjob to mirror these to > ioquake3.org wins cuddles from Timbo. > I prefer wget across ftp for mirroring. I got ambitious and tried to write my own shell and cron but after 30 minutes gave up cause I can't test it (on my windows box), however, this link should let you do it in a snap on a linux box http://www.ccp14.ac.uk/mirror/wget.htm#script >> >> cu >> Ludwig >> > > Thank you, Ludwig. > -- "I do not mean for a moment that we ought not to think, and think hard, about improvements in our social and economic system. What I do mean is that all that thinking will be mere moonshine unless we realize that nothing but the courage and unselfishness of individuals is ever going to make any system work properly." -- C. S. Lewis From theorem21 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:48:04 2008 From: theorem21 at gmail.com (Theorem) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:48:04 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Re: New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <47F21607.5020902@timedoctor.org> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> <135ebb010804010307i46589c3eqa9a99f187a1952e7@mail.gmail.com> <47F21607.5020902@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47F44564.90508@gmail.com> I recommend http://drop.io . It has some advantages over other file hosting solutions. Check it out. ( this isn't spam, it's really quite good. ) Zachary Slater wrote: > http://ioquake3.org/files/rtpatch1270.zip > Mirrored to avoid the weird file thing. Thanks Stephan! > > From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Thu Apr 3 04:00:57 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:00:57 +0200 Subject: [quake3] semi automatic installer builds In-Reply-To: <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Zachary Slater wrote: > Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > Since the ioquake3 web site always offers rotten builds and users > > keep asking ... > > Yes. I'd like to fix this through a cronjob that gets automated builds > from somewhere. For me it would be more convenient if I could just upload the files somewhere. For uploading to ftp.suse.com I need to be in the suse network ie at work. > > I've uploaded the installers to > > ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/lnussel/ioquake3 for now and intend to > > update them every now and then. > > This is very cool, I recall the last time I checked this out the exe's > were stuck into RPMs. They still come from rpms. I wrote scripts to extract them. > > Things I know zakk doesn't like: > > - the installers are engine only so you need to install baseq3 > > manually. The data files never change anyways so IMO a separate > > installer that installs them as sub component of ioquake3 is the > > solution here (same for "standalone" mods). > > I like how the windows pidgin installer (optionally) downloads aspell, > then a dictionary, etc and puts it all together nicely. It'd be good to > have something similar for baseq3, patch data, and a few other moddy > choices for fun. That doesn't need to be directly in the installer. IMHO something similar to loki-demos would be cool. Instead of only displaying installed stuff like loki-demos it could show what's available and offer to download and install it. > > So, that's it from my side. Any feedback whether this service is > > useful and is worth continuing or whether I should better > > concentrate on things I'm actually paid for is welcome ;-) > > Yes to working on this more. > > First person to write me a nice SAFE cronjob to mirror these to > ioquake3.org wins cuddles from Timbo. I've attached a q&d script that uses rsync and rpm2cpio to fetch the packages from a buildservice mirror. You could run that in a cron job. It has the disadvantages that you have to poll the server, the mirror may take some time to pick up the builds and it's not possible to add gpg signatures this way. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: m Type: application/x-shellscript Size: 950 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 3 08:33:39 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:33:39 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Re: New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <47F44564.90508@gmail.com> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> <135ebb010804010307i46589c3eqa9a99f187a1952e7@mail.gmail.com> <47F21607.5020902@timedoctor.org> <47F44564.90508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F4CEA3.5030902@timedoctor.org> Theorem wrote: > I recommend http://drop.io . It has some advantages over other file > hosting solutions. Check it out. > > ( this isn't spam, it's really quite good. ) Regardless, I supply ioquake3 with hosting that has at least 0.5% uptime, so this isn't needed. From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Fri Apr 4 21:38:09 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 03:38:09 +0200 Subject: IPv6 support Message-ID: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hello, Over the last few days I have finally added ipv6 support to ioquake3. As of now, ioquake3 has full capability to create, as well as join ipv6 servers. However - the ipv6 capabilities are still basic. Meaning, connecting works, but stuff like server scanning on local subnet, master server queries and banning of course do not work yet. I will tackle these issues one by one in the next days. In the meantime, the basic work has been committed to SVN. It is not really documented yet, I will write that up and add details to the README when the main part is done. I have tested the code under Linux and Windows and it should work for both. Nevertheless, you are more than welcome to give the code a shot yourselves. I'd also like to have some MacOSX users try to compile the stuff and tell me whether everything works. Just drop me a line here about problems you encounter and I will try to fix them. If you need a host for testing, a test server is running at ipv6.tjps.eu:27960 It has no v4 address, so you really need ipv6 access if you want to connect. You can use /connect -6 to have it explicitly use ipv6, though in the case where there is only an ipv6 address it will use that one anyways. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Fri Apr 4 21:40:44 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 03:40:44 +0200 Subject: [quake3] New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804050340.51404.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Dienstag, 1. April 2008, Stephan Reiter wrote: > Patch is available from here: > http://www.file-upload.net/download-760882/rtpatch1270.zip.html > > Comments and test reports are appreciated! :-) > Stephan Thank you for posting a follow-up to your patch. I haven't had the time yet to do much testing, however, I am of course following with interest the development. And, of course, I wish you success with your diploma thesis! -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Sat Apr 5 01:54:24 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 14:54:24 +0900 Subject: New forums? Message-ID: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> Since everyone hates phpbb, including me, I've decided to renew ioquake.org and set up simple machines forum software there. My apologies for yet another Login/Password, if I can I'm going to figure out how to integrate this with ioquake3.org's wordpress login/password setup. anyway, the test setup is at: http://ioquake.org/forums/ Let me know what you guys think, and if it works out I'll ask for help getting it to keep the theme of the ioquake.org/ioquake3.org setup. Have fun! From jorgepblank at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 02:00:41 2008 From: jorgepblank at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Pe=F1a?=) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 23:00:41 -0700 Subject: [quake3] New forums? In-Reply-To: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> What phpBB version were you using? On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Zachary Slater wrote: > Since everyone hates phpbb, including me, I've decided to renew > ioquake.org and set up simple machines forum software there. > > My apologies for yet another Login/Password, if I can I'm going to figure > out how to integrate this with ioquake3.org's wordpress login/password > setup. > > anyway, the test setup is at: > http://ioquake.org/forums/ > > Let me know what you guys think, and if it works out I'll ask for help > getting it to keep the theme of the ioquake.org/ioquake3.org setup. > > Have fun! > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Sat Apr 5 02:16:09 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:16:09 +0900 Subject: [quake3] New forums? In-Reply-To: <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F71929.9060708@timedoctor.org> Jorge Pe?a wrote: > What phpBB version were you using? ioquake3.org/forums is phpbb 3 ioquake.org/forums is smf 1.mumble.mumble The urls are intentionally similar fyi, eventually the idea is that ioquake.org will be the "host" site which hosts the forums, email, wiki, and whatever else. Actual per-project things will remain on the ioquake3.org site. Theoretically I can use this division to simplify the number of navigational options on each site down, and also make it so people won't have to worry about typing ioquake.org or ioquake3.org From jorgepblank at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 02:54:25 2008 From: jorgepblank at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Pe=F1a?=) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 23:54:25 -0700 Subject: [quake3] New forums? In-Reply-To: <47F71929.9060708@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> <47F71929.9060708@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <28406b400804042354gbf86d2fv595546af6e36ff11@mail.gmail.com> phpBB3 looks like its doing great on that site to me, what are the complaints? On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Zachary Slater wrote: > Jorge Pe?a wrote: > > > What phpBB version were you using? > > > > ioquake3.org/forums is phpbb 3 > > ioquake.org/forums is smf 1.mumble.mumble > > The urls are intentionally similar fyi, eventually the idea is that > ioquake.org will be the "host" site which hosts the forums, email, wiki, > and whatever else. Actual per-project things will remain on the > ioquake3.org site. > > Theoretically I can use this division to simplify the number of > navigational options on each site down, and also make it so people won't > have to worry about typing ioquake.org or ioquake3.org > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 03:56:43 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 03:56:43 -0400 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <227DFC83D6C74DEE856C7954FF9BC215@chrispc> Hello, In regards to IPv6, have you seen these? http://go6.net/4105/description.asp?product_id=170&category_id=276 and also a pdf whitepaper? http://www.hexago.com/docs/quake3_whitepaper.pdf Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Schulz" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support From zakk at timedoctor.org Sat Apr 5 04:58:32 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:58:32 +0900 Subject: [quake3] New forums? In-Reply-To: <28406b400804042354gbf86d2fv595546af6e36ff11@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> <47F71929.9060708@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042354gbf86d2fv595546af6e36ff11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F73F38.3050707@timedoctor.org> Jorge Pe?a wrote: > phpBB3 looks like its doing great on that site to me, what are the > complaints? I've just found the administration to be fundamentally broken, after attempting to make new forums and not being able to figure out why they won't show up for me. Regardless of the reason why, I don't want to waste time having to deal with an obtuse administration program. From vincent at cojot.name Sat Apr 5 05:21:15 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 11:21:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: Hi Thilo, I Don't have time for a patch right now but Solaris 10 doesn't have ifaddrs.h (getifaddrs): DED_CC code/qcommon/net_ip.c code/qcommon/net_ip.c:58:21: ifaddrs.h: No such file or directory code/qcommon/net_ip.c: In function `NET_GetLocalAddress': code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1137: warning: implicit declaration of function `getifaddrs' code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1141: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1143: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1144: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1147: warning: implicit declaration of function `freeifaddrs' gmake[2]: *** [build/release-sunos-i386/ded/net_ip.o] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/net/thorbardin/export/home/raistlin/SVN/icculus/quake3-Solaris/trunk' gmake[1]: *** [targets] Error 2 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/net/thorbardin/export/home/raistlin/SVN/icculus/quake3-Solaris/trunk' gmake: *** [release] Error 2 We'd need some kind of protection for other platforms, Solaris has had IPV6 since '00 (Solaris 8) but I have never used it. I'm investigating, Vincent On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, Thilo Schulz wrote: > Hello, > > Over the last few days I have finally added ipv6 support to ioquake3. > As of now, ioquake3 has full capability to create, as well as join ipv6 > servers. However - the ipv6 capabilities are still basic. Meaning, connecting > works, but stuff like server scanning on local subnet, master server queries > and banning of course do not work yet. I will tackle these issues one by one > in the next days. > > In the meantime, the basic work has been committed to SVN. > It is not really documented yet, I will write that up and add details to the > README when the main part is done. > > I have tested the code under Linux and Windows and it should work for both. > Nevertheless, you are more than welcome to give the code a shot yourselves. > I'd also like to have some MacOSX users try to compile the stuff and tell me > whether everything works. Just drop me a line here about problems you > encounter and I will try to fix them. > > If you need a host for testing, a test server is running at > ipv6.tjps.eu:27960 > It has no v4 address, so you really need ipv6 access if you want to connect. > > You can use > /connect -6 > to have it explicitly use ipv6, though in the case where there is only an ipv6 > address it will use that one anyways. > > -- ,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-, Vincent S. Cojot, Computer Engineering. STEP project. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Comite Micro-Informatique. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,. Linux Xview/OpenLook resources page _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~' http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._ coyote at NOSPAM4cojot.name They cannot scare me with their empty spaces Between stars - on stars where no human race is I have it in me so much nearer home To scare myself with my own desert places. - Robert Frost From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sat Apr 5 06:13:30 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 12:13:30 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804051213.30939.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Thilo Schulz wrote: > Over the last few days I have finally added ipv6 support to ioquake3. > As of now, ioquake3 has full capability to create, as well as join ipv6 > servers. Nice but doesn't build in mingw32: /opt/cross/bin/i386-mingw32msvc-gcc -DDEDICATED -Wall -fno-strict-aliasing -Wimplicit -Wstrict-prototypes -DUSE_ICON -Icode/SDL12/include -DUSE_OPENAL=1 -DUSE_OPENAL_DLOPEN -m32 -DUSE_LOCAL_HEADERS -DNDEBUG -O3 -march=i586 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -falign-loops=2 -funroll-loops -falign-jumps=2 -falign-functions=2 -fstrength-reduce -o build/release-mingw32-x86/ded/net_ip.o -c code/qcommon/net_ip.c code/qcommon/net_ip.c:28:22: Ws2tcpip.h: No such file or directory code/qcommon/net_ip.c:29:21: Wspiapi.h: No such file or directory [...] It probably makes sense to have a compile time switch to disable ipv6 support if needed. That would also help on platforms where it likely takes some time until someone provides working code like on Solaris. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 09:15:11 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:15:11 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804051515.15430.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: > Hi Thilo, > > I Don't have time for a patch right now but Solaris 10 doesn't have > ifaddrs.h (getifaddrs): > > DED_CC code/qcommon/net_ip.c > code/qcommon/net_ip.c:58:21: ifaddrs.h: No such file or directory > code/qcommon/net_ip.c: In function `NET_GetLocalAddress': > code/qcommon/net_ip.c:1137: warning: implicit declaration of function > ... > gmake: *** [release] Error 2 > > We'd need some kind of protection for other platforms, > > Solaris has had IPV6 since '00 (Solaris 8) but I have never used it. > I'm investigating, This is pretty easy to fix. Recognition of local interfaces will not be so good though - it will just use getaddrinfo() to get information about all configured interfaces and used netmasks. Feel free to make a patch to make this better for solaris :) -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 09:39:46 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:39:46 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051213.30939.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051213.30939.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <200804051539.49988.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > It probably makes sense to have a compile time switch to disable > ipv6 support if needed. That would also help on platforms where > it likely takes some time until someone provides working code like > on Solaris. I'd really like to avoid that, for this reason: I have replaced many deprecated functions, like gethostbyname() by getaddrinfo() which is not supported by the old winsock.h.. that means if we really wanted to support that MinGW configuration of yours, we'd need to keep a separate code path to include the old deprecated gethostbyname(). We don't want that. IPv6 is supported by every operating system ioquake3 builds on today. That means that if it is unable to build, your userland headers, etc. are too old. Even MinGW should include these .h files by now, either your MinGW installation is too old, or, maybe we just need to set a #define on MinGW to turn them on. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From vincent at cojot.name Sat Apr 5 09:50:23 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:50:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051515.15430.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051515.15430.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, Thilo Schulz wrote: > This is pretty easy to fix. Recognition of local interfaces will not be so > good though - it will just use getaddrinfo() to get information about all > configured interfaces and used netmasks. > Feel free to make a patch to make this better for solaris :) Hi Thilo, I'll try to make up some time to dig into this. I just tried rev1291 with a Solaris10/x86 or a Solaris/SPARC server and a Linux/RHEL4 client. It compiled fine but whenever the client attemps to connect, I get this on the server console: NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument Any ideas? All I have is 20 minutes this week so it's too short... :( Vincent From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 09:51:24 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:51:24 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <227DFC83D6C74DEE856C7954FF9BC215@chrispc> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <227DFC83D6C74DEE856C7954FF9BC215@chrispc> Message-ID: <200804051551.28242.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, Chris Bunting wrote: > In regards to IPv6, have you seen these? > > http://go6.net/4105/description.asp?product_id=170&category_id=276 > > and also a pdf whitepaper? > > http://www.hexago.com/docs/quake3_whitepaper.pdf This is from the same people, who opened the bug report at the top in our bugtracker :) I haven't really seen it, but the whitepaper may still turn out useful for the multicast part I intend to code. It's required for scanning for local servers on the subnet, I'll still come to that in the next days. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 10:21:50 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:21:50 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051515.15430.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: > I'll try to make up some time to dig into this. I just tried rev1291 with > a Solaris10/x86 or a Solaris/SPARC server and a Linux/RHEL4 client. It > compiled fine but whenever the client attemps to connect, I get this on > the server console: > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument Umm, no, but this is on the v6 socket only, not when connecting via v4, right? -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From vincent at cojot.name Sat Apr 5 10:37:54 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:37:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051515.15430.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, Thilo Schulz wrote: > On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: >> I'll try to make up some time to dig into this. I just tried rev1291 with >> a Solaris10/x86 or a Solaris/SPARC server and a Linux/RHEL4 client. It >> compiled fine but whenever the client attemps to connect, I get this on >> the server console: >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument >> NET_SendPacket: Invalid argument > > Umm, no, but this is on the v6 socket only, not when connecting via v4, right? Well, the Linux client only has IPv4 enabled but the SUN box does have an IPV6 interface (although it is not in use): [export/home/raistlin/SVN/icculus/quake3-Solaris/trunk ]ifconfig -a lo0: flags=2001000849 mtu 8232 index 1 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask ff000000 bge0: flags=1000843 mtu 1500 index 2 inet 192.168.128.8 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 192.168.128.255 lo0: flags=2002000849 mtu 8252 index 1 inet6 ::1/128 bge0: flags=2004841 mtu 1500 index 2 inet6 fe80::214:4fff:fe0e:87ae/10 Maybe the server is binding to the IPV6 interface.. strange.. -- ,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-, Vincent S. Cojot, Computer Engineering. STEP project. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Comite Micro-Informatique. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,. Linux Xview/OpenLook resources page _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~' http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._ coyote at NOSPAM4cojot.name They cannot scare me with their empty spaces Between stars - on stars where no human race is I have it in me so much nearer home To scare myself with my own desert places. - Robert Frost From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sat Apr 5 10:50:20 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:50:20 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051539.49988.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051213.30939.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <200804051539.49988.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804051650.20520.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Thilo Schulz wrote: > IPv6 is supported by every operating system ioquake3 builds on today. That > means that if it is unable to build, your userland headers, etc. are too old. > Even MinGW should include these .h files by now, either your MinGW > installation is too old, or, maybe we just need to set a #define on MinGW to > turn them on. Well, maybe. I don't maintain those mingw32 packages in the build service and I don't intend to. If ioq3 doesn't build anymore with what's there that just means no win32 builds from that side anymore which would be a pity. AFAICS the build service has w32api-3.8 and there is w32api-3.11 available from sourceforge. Maybe updating that would already fix the problem. Anyone here with a clue about mingw32 cross compilation? Anyways, attached patch fixes it up to: code/qcommon/net_ip.c: In function `NET_IP6Socket': code/qcommon/net_ip.c:794: error: `IPV6_V6ONLY' undeclared (first use in this function) IPV6_V6ONLY is not in any header. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0001-try-to-fix-build-with-mingw32.patch Type: text/x-diff Size: 1229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 10:31:13 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:31:13 +0200 Subject: sv_fps confusion... Message-ID: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> Ok... ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 for Defrag... ...and I'm confused. Anyone who has an deeper insight into the related code available for a comment on this one? Dirk From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 11:20:15 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 17:20:15 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804051720.18743.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: > Maybe the server is binding to the IPV6 interface.. strange.. No, I have looked at the manpage. It seems to be something else: EINVAL The dest_len argument is not a valid length for the address family. Try again please with latest SVN. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From vincent at cojot.name Sat Apr 5 12:32:43 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 18:32:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051720.18743.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051720.18743.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, Thilo Schulz wrote: > On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: >> Maybe the server is binding to the IPV6 interface.. strange.. > > No, I have looked at the manpage. It seems to be something else: > > EINVAL > The dest_len argument is not a valid length for the address family. > > Try again please with latest SVN. Thank you very much, I can confirm that it works fine now on Solaris SPARC (most probably x86 too). Sorry that I lacked the time to help fix this.. Cheers, Vincent From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 12:27:12 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:27:12 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> Dirk wrote: > Ok... > > ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 > for Defrag... > > ...and I'm confused. > > Anyone who has an deeper insight into the related code available for a > comment on this one? > > > Dirk > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > I'm getting the impression that asking politely doesn't work here. Could someone please come down from his 1337-trip... return to earth... and give me a definate answer to this? And please don't give me the Netiquette shit... it would make me only worse... Dirk From bnoordhuis at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 13:15:04 2008 From: bnoordhuis at gmail.com (Ben Noordhuis) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:15:04 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> Message-ID: <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Dirk wrote: > I'm getting the impression that asking politely doesn't work here. That is because you are posting an end user question to a developer mailing list. Try http://www.quake3world.com/forum/ - it's a better place for it. From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 12:48:36 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:48:36 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> Ben Noordhuis wrote: > On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Dirk wrote: >> I'm getting the impression that asking politely doesn't work here. > > That is because you are posting an end user question to a developer > mailing list. Try http://www.quake3world.com/forum/ - it's a better > place for it. > No it is not... if you would have read my question you would realize that i already asked someone in some forum... with the following result... > ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 for Defrag... See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... > Anyone who has an deeper insight into the related code available for a comment on this one? See? I'm asking a developer... I would be very happy if someone who really, really, really knows what he's talking about would answer to this... I have enough of the myths from some forum-know-it-alls... Thank you, thank you, thank you! From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:03:56 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:03:56 +0200 Subject: sv_fps Message-ID: <47F7B0FC.5000903@gmx.net> Could a developer, please, tell me if there is a value for sv_fps that works better than the default? I have heard about 30, 40 and 125 but I'm not sure. I dare to ask a developer because people in the forums contradict themselves. Thank you, Dirk From defsyn at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 13:50:36 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 12:50:36 -0500 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> Message-ID: > > > ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 for > > Defrag... > > > com_maxfps 125 That maxes out the frames per second at 125. I've heard some Quake3 users say that that is the optimal rate to set your frame rate. Going Higher or lower takes more CPU cycles. You can set that in the console. Has something to do with the math calculations. But that's probably what you've heard. > See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... > Really. You could know. Just run a disconnect, testdemo, and chart your results to see if the above suggestion isn't true. And then you would know. What benefit that is to the advancement of civilization, I don't know? But there you have it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 13:51:59 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:51:59 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps In-Reply-To: <47F7B0FC.5000903@gmx.net> References: <47F7B0FC.5000903@gmx.net> Message-ID: Tell us, what are you trying to achieve? Are you playing around with sv_fps just because you read on some forums that "better results", whatever those are, are possible? We can't help you, if we don't know what you want. And you better stick to a polite way of asking here, if you want an answer! Stephan Am 05.04.2008 um 19:03 schrieb Dirk: > Could a developer, please, tell me if there is a value for sv_fps > that works better than the default? I have heard about 30, 40 and > 125 but I'm not sure. > > I dare to ask a developer because people in the forums contradict > themselves. > > > Thank you, > Dirk > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:12:13 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:12:13 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> Henry Garcia wrote: >> >> ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 for >>> Defrag... >>> >> com_maxfps 125 > > That maxes out the frames per second at 125. I've heard some Quake3 users > say that that is the optimal rate to set your frame rate. Going Higher or > lower takes more CPU cycles. You can set that in the console. Has something > to do with the math calculations. But that's probably what you've heard. > > >> See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... >> > > Really. You could know. Just run a disconnect, testdemo, and chart your > results to see if the above suggestion isn't true. And then you would know. > What benefit that is to the advancement of civilization, I don't know? But > there you have it. > See? That's how it is in the forums... I ask for sv_fps... and get com_maxfps... No please stop your efforts NOT to answer my question and just do it. Thank you, Dirk P.S.: Thank you Henry, I appreciate you answer but I was asking for a server setting. From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:16:26 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:16:26 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps In-Reply-To: References: <47F7B0FC.5000903@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47F7B3EA.8000209@gmx.net> Stephan Reiter wrote: > Tell us, what are you trying to achieve? Are you playing around with > sv_fps just because you read on some forums that "better results", > whatever those are, are possible? > > We can't help you, if we don't know what you want. And you better stick > to a polite way of asking here, if you want an answer! > > Stephan > I'm trying to achieve the right value for sv_fps... for DM servers... and for Defrag servers... I know there have been many changes/cleanups in the ioq3 code so forum entries from 1-4 years ago might not apply anymore. The default is 20. But players keep bothering me to set it to 30, 40 or 125. What is the customary value for sv_fps except 20. Thank you, Dirk From defsyn at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 14:02:19 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:02:19 -0500 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Dirk wrote: > Henry Garcia wrote: > > > > > > ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 > > > for > > > > > > > Defrag... > > > > > > > > com_maxfps 125 > > > > > > > That maxes out the frames per second at 125. I've heard some Quake3 > > users > > say that that is the optimal rate to set your frame rate. Going Higher > > or > > lower takes more CPU cycles. You can set that in the console. Has > > something > > to do with the math calculations. But that's probably what you've heard. > > > > > > See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... > > > > > > > > Really. You could know. Just run a disconnect, testdemo, and chart your > > results to see if the above suggestion isn't true. And then you would > > know. > > What benefit that is to the advancement of civilization, I don't know? > > But > > there you have it. > > > > > See? > > That's how it is in the forums... I ask for sv_fps... and get > com_maxfps... > > > No please stop your efforts NOT to answer my question and just do it. Maybe you should try taking fish oil. They say it calms you down and returns you to a state of reality. > > Thank you, > Dirk > > > P.S.: Thank you Henry, I appreciate you answer but I was asking for a > server setting. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 14:03:37 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:03:37 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> Message-ID: <49EA2231-8D45-4E12-B17F-97BD85D7D45E@gmail.com> Dirk, you really seem to have a way with people: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/07/msg02972.html http://sourceware.org/ml/automake/2004-02/msg00045.html http://unixadmintalk.com/f11/slightly-annoyed-question-about-debian- package-system-107875/ Hmmm, I'm wondering why I'm humming "One Angry Dwarf" by Ben Folds Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pWB2N0_TxM) now ... Ste Am 05.04.2008 um 19:12 schrieb Dirk: > Henry Garcia wrote: >>> >>> ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or >>> even 125 for >>>> Defrag... >>>> >>> com_maxfps 125 >> That maxes out the frames per second at 125. I've heard some >> Quake3 users >> say that that is the optimal rate to set your frame rate. Going >> Higher or >> lower takes more CPU cycles. You can set that in the console. Has >> something >> to do with the math calculations. But that's probably what you've >> heard. >>> See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... >>> >> Really. You could know. Just run a disconnect, testdemo, and chart >> your >> results to see if the above suggestion isn't true. And then you >> would know. >> What benefit that is to the advancement of civilization, I don't >> know? But >> there you have it. > > See? > > That's how it is in the forums... I ask for sv_fps... and get > com_maxfps... > > > No please stop your efforts NOT to answer my question and just do it. > > Thank you, > Dirk > > > P.S.: Thank you Henry, I appreciate you answer but I was asking for > a server setting. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 14:06:38 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:06:38 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200804052006.40752.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, Dirk wrote: > ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 > for Defrag... > > ...and I'm confused. sv_fps says how many gameworld updates are performed per second. Each gameworld update includes computing player positions and then generates a snapshot that is sent to the clients. It is very possible that modifying this value has influence on the movement. The pmove code is very complex, and I have never tried to fully understand it, so this is an answer I can give you on behalf of the whole development team: We do not know how, and if changing sv_fps will affect player movement. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 14:07:57 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:07:57 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 support In-Reply-To: <200804051720.18743.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804050338.14459.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051621.53915.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804051720.18743.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <92F0B644-F63C-4255-9BA2-EF5F03A0778C@gmail.com> Hi Thilo, Your patch builds and runs fine on Mac OS X Tiger! Great job, Stephan Am 05.04.2008 um 17:20 schrieb Thilo Schulz: > On Samstag, 5. April 2008, vincent at cojot.name wrote: >> Maybe the server is binding to the IPV6 interface.. strange.. > > No, I have looked at the manpage. It seems to be something else: > > EINVAL > The dest_len argument is not a valid length for the address family. > > Try again please with latest SVN. > > -- > Thilo Schulz From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:25:56 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:25:56 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47F7B624.4080302@gmx.net> > > Maybe you should try taking fish oil. They say it calms you down and returns > you to a state of reality. > ...this mailing list is even worse than the forums :D From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:30:57 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:30:57 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <49EA2231-8D45-4E12-B17F-97BD85D7D45E@gmail.com> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> <49EA2231-8D45-4E12-B17F-97BD85D7D45E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F7B751.8070800@gmx.net> It's called trolling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll and it works. Most of the times. It would have been great if you had, instead of Googling for my email, answered my question. Then, I would have STFU by now. But you seem to like to embrace into a lengthly dialog with me instead. Stephan Reiter wrote: > Dirk, > > you really seem to have a way with people: > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/07/msg02972.html > http://sourceware.org/ml/automake/2004-02/msg00045.html > http://unixadmintalk.com/f11/slightly-annoyed-question-about-debian-package-system-107875/ > > > Hmmm, I'm wondering why I'm humming "One Angry Dwarf" by Ben Folds Five > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pWB2N0_TxM) now ... > > Ste > > > Am 05.04.2008 um 19:12 schrieb Dirk: > >> Henry Garcia wrote: >>>> >>>> ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even >>>> 125 for >>>>> Defrag... >>>>> >>>> com_maxfps 125 >>> That maxes out the frames per second at 125. I've heard some Quake3 >>> users >>> say that that is the optimal rate to set your frame rate. Going >>> Higher or >>> lower takes more CPU cycles. You can set that in the console. Has >>> something >>> to do with the math calculations. But that's probably what you've heard. >>>> See? Nobody really knows... So I'm asking someone who does... >>>> >>> Really. You could know. Just run a disconnect, testdemo, and chart your >>> results to see if the above suggestion isn't true. And then you would >>> know. >>> What benefit that is to the advancement of civilization, I don't >>> know? But >>> there you have it. >> >> See? >> >> That's how it is in the forums... I ask for sv_fps... and get >> com_maxfps... >> >> >> No please stop your efforts NOT to answer my question and just do it. >> >> Thank you, >> Dirk >> >> >> P.S.: Thank you Henry, I appreciate you answer but I was asking for a >> server setting. >> >> --- >> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org >> Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 >> >> > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From defsyn at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 14:16:31 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:16:31 -0500 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <47F7B624.4080302@gmx.net> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <47F7A860.6060706@gmx.net> <54885e060804051015j72334dcbx7ab041cc585cf56e@mail.gmail.com> <47F7AD64.4090909@gmx.net> <47F7B2ED.6010406@gmx.net> <47F7B624.4080302@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Dirk wrote: > > > > Maybe you should try taking fish oil. They say it calms you down and > > returns > > you to a state of reality. > > > > > ...this mailing list is even worse than the forums :D > Really. It's all about moving bytes. 125 bits plus a few more bits used for ID purposes makes 128.. Go over or under that value and then the machine code has to perform more iterations. Are you happy now? Yo ne se que decirle mas. Shalom > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noisyb at gmx.net Sat Apr 5 13:34:12 2008 From: noisyb at gmx.net (Dirk) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:34:12 +0200 Subject: [quake3] sv_fps confusion... In-Reply-To: <200804052006.40752.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F78D31.6060501@gmx.net> <200804052006.40752.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <47F7B814.8040708@gmx.net> Thilo Schulz wrote: > On Samstag, 5. April 2008, Dirk wrote: >> ...people keep telling me to set sv_fps to 20, 25, 30, 40 or even 125 >> for Defrag... >> >> ...and I'm confused. > > sv_fps says how many gameworld updates are performed per second. Each > gameworld update includes computing player positions and then generates a > snapshot that is sent to the clients. It is very possible that modifying this > value has influence on the movement. > The pmove code is very complex, and I have never tried to fully understand it, > so this is an answer I can give you on behalf of the whole development team: > > We do not know how, and if changing sv_fps will affect player movement. > Thank you for this good answer. I know howto deal with different people demanding different sv_fps now. Dirk From jorgepblank at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 14:51:13 2008 From: jorgepblank at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Pe=F1a?=) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 11:51:13 -0700 Subject: [quake3] New forums? In-Reply-To: <47F73F38.3050707@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042300v3292bfbbh7eeaf9c42e5f75f8@mail.gmail.com> <47F71929.9060708@timedoctor.org> <28406b400804042354gbf86d2fv595546af6e36ff11@mail.gmail.com> <47F73F38.3050707@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <28406b400804051151u2aef50c5s40646d457da34f53@mail.gmail.com> Just go to the forums tab. Then Manage Forums on the left. Afterwards, type the name in the textbox in the bottom, then click the Create New Forum button. This will take you to a page which allows you to configure that forums settings. Make sure you select the correct Parent Forum. Fill in the forum name, description, and any other thing you'd like to set. Since you most likely already set the correct permissions for the forum you already have (*Unless that's supposed to be some type of parent forum*), then in "Copy permissions from:" make sure you select that forum, so that you wont have to manually go to the permissions page of the forum to configure the permissions. This could be why it's not showing up for you, the permissions are probably set so that no one or you can't see the forum (*Also when you create the forum make sure to go over every option to make sure you don't accidentally make it hidden*). This might sound really cumbersome but you have to realize that after you get this down, it's really simple to do over again. I know it's sometimes annoying to have things not function the way you'd expect them too (*Though to many of us think that this is pretty straightforward*). This should solve your problem, and also spend some time just browsing through the administration panel to get a good feel for it. Just give it a chance though, don't drop it over something so minimal, the phpBB3 ACP is really powerful. On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 1:58 AM, Zachary Slater wrote: > Jorge Pe?a wrote: > > > phpBB3 looks like its doing great on that site to me, what are the > > complaints? > > > > I've just found the administration to be fundamentally broken, after > attempting to make new forums and not being able to figure out why they > won't show up for me. Regardless of the reason why, I don't want to waste > time having to deal with an obtuse administration program. > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thing at groundplan.com Sat Apr 5 15:49:51 2008 From: thing at groundplan.com (thing) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:49:51 +0100 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> Hello, I just thought I would introduce myself having recently signed up to this mailing list! It has been a few years since I have done any Quake modding (mainly maps and models) but something has revitalized my interest of late, a part of which was discoving the ioquake project. There are a few members of our team still around, and at this time we are working towards the idea of making a stand alone game based upon our last mod and ioquake. Sadly our main coder has been lost to Warcraft so it falls to me, for the time being, to get my fingers dirty with the code. I must confess that my coding skills are a little rusty (not that they were ever more than competent) having been away from it for so long. So I will try not to ask too many dumb questions :) I do have one possibly dumb question though ... When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit the mod: VM_Free(ui) on running vm This does not happen when exiting from vanilla Q3 and, strangely, it does not happen if I type /quit at the console. Only when I exit from the menus. The previous build of ioquake I compiled did not do this (sorry I can't remember the exact version that I checked out, was over a week ago), also the ioquake precompiled binary available for download does not flag this error. Any ideas? Tim p.s Thanks for all your hard work on this project! From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 16:21:22 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 22:21:22 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> Message-ID: <200804052221.26416.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, thing wrote: > When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit > the mod: > > VM_Free(ui) on running vm > > This does not happen when exiting from vanilla Q3 and, strangely, it > does not happen if I type /quit at the console. Only when I exit from > the menus. The previous build of ioquake I compiled did not do this > (sorry I can't remember the exact version that I checked out, was over a > week ago), also the ioquake precompiled binary available for download > does not flag this error. Yes, I know that bug, I have had it myself on windows. This will be fixed, but I cannot tell you when, though. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From webmaster at groundplan.com Sat Apr 5 16:43:05 2008 From: webmaster at groundplan.com (webmaster at groundplan.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 21:43:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804052221.26416.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> <200804052221.26416.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <1156.83.67.66.184.1207428185.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Hi Thilo, Thanks for that information. Is this a windows only bug then? I haven't tried it on Linux yet. Will do that at work next week. Is this bug serious or can I ignore it for the time being? Tim > On Samstag, 5. April 2008, thing wrote: >> When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit >> the mod: >> >> VM_Free(ui) on running vm >> >> This does not happen when exiting from vanilla Q3 and, strangely, it >> does not happen if I type /quit at the console. Only when I exit from >> the menus. The previous build of ioquake I compiled did not do this >> (sorry I can't remember the exact version that I checked out, was over a >> week ago), also the ioquake precompiled binary available for download >> does not flag this error. > > Yes, I know that bug, I have had it myself on windows. This will be fixed, > but > I cannot tell you when, though. > > -- > Thilo Schulz > From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 5 16:46:33 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 22:46:33 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <1156.83.67.66.184.1207428185.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804052221.26416.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1156.83.67.66.184.1207428185.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Message-ID: <200804052246.36315.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 5. April 2008, webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > Thanks for that information. Is this a windows only bug then? I haven't > tried it on Linux yet. Will do that at work next week. > > Is this bug serious or can I ignore it for the time being? I haven't had this bug on windows yet. As the bug only happens at exit it is not really serious. Of course it should be removed before any official release comes out, of any type of game that uses this engine. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From webmaster at groundplan.com Sat Apr 5 17:33:44 2008 From: webmaster at groundplan.com (webmaster at groundplan.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 22:33:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804052246.36315.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804052221.26416.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1156.83.67.66.184.1207428185.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804052246.36315.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <1191.83.67.66.184.1207431224.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> > I haven't had this bug on windows yet. As the bug only happens at exit it > is > not really serious. Of course it should be removed before any official > release comes out, of any type of game that uses this engine. > > -- > Thilo Schulz > Of course we wouldn't release with this bug present, I meant to say that I shouldn't worry about it as it will be fixed in the ioquake source at some point :) Tim From demodevil at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 05:55:48 2008 From: demodevil at gmail.com (Slash) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 05:55:48 -0400 Subject: ioquake3 on the iPod Touch Message-ID: Greetings, Thought you guys may be interested in seeing this: http://hermitworks.blogspot.com/2008/04/quake-3-itouch.html From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 06:09:18 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:09:18 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> Message-ID: <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> thing wrote: > There are a few members of our team still around, and at this time we > are working towards the idea of making a stand alone game based upon our > last mod and ioquake. I wonder why people are so excited about making a "standalone" game by compiling some snapshot of ioquake3 and renaming the binary. What's wrong with having a mod for ioquake3? > When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit > the mod: > > VM_Free(ui) on running vm > > This does not happen when exiting from vanilla Q3 and, strangely, it > does not happen if I type /quit at the console. Only when I exit from > the menus. The previous build of ioquake I compiled did not do this > (sorry I can't remember the exact version that I checked out, was over a > week ago), also the ioquake precompiled binary available for download > does not flag this error. I'll find a solution for this ASAP. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From webmaster at groundplan.com Sun Apr 6 08:06:39 2008 From: webmaster at groundplan.com (webmaster at groundplan.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:06:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Hi, > I wonder why people are so excited about making a "standalone" game > by compiling some snapshot of ioquake3 and renaming the binary. > What's wrong with having a mod for ioquake3? For two reasons I guess. Firstly, if you are going to all the effort of a total conversion why make it just a mod when you can deliver a complete package? Secondly, there will likely be changes in the binary that mean it won't work with ioquake. >> When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit >> the mod: >> >> VM_Free(ui) on running vm > > I'll find a solution for this ASAP. > > cu > Ludwig Excellent, thank you. Tim From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 08:38:04 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:38:04 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Message-ID: <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > Hi, > > > I wonder why people are so excited about making a "standalone" game > > by compiling some snapshot of ioquake3 and renaming the binary. > > What's wrong with having a mod for ioquake3? > > For two reasons I guess. Firstly, if you are going to all the effort of a > total conversion why make it just a mod when you can deliver a complete > package? Sounds like a mod would be less worth than something that contains binaries. The contrary is the case IMO. - a separate game has to be configured separately whereas a mod inherits the initial settings (video mode, key binds) from baseq3 - a separate game has to be updated separately ie the user will not benefit from (security) fixes in ioquake3 immediately or never - a qvm mod is platform independent, a huge benefit for users of the more exotic platforms/operating systems. > Secondly, there will likely be changes in the binary that mean it > won't work with ioquake. That's unlikely for most games. Better concentrate your efforts on making a good game rather than messing with the engine. Enhancements and bug fixes should be included in ioquake3 directly so others benefit from them as well. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 09:09:48 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:09:48 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> Message-ID: <200804061509.48379.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> thing wrote: > When I compile ioquake I get the following (memory?) error when I exit > the mod: > > VM_Free(ui) on running vm Fixed. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From urameshi at mailshack.com Sun Apr 6 09:13:28 2008 From: urameshi at mailshack.com (Tiago Resende) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 10:13:28 -0300 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F7D7DF.8010509@groundplan.com> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <20080406131328.GA3936@a-chan> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 12:09:18PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > thing wrote: > > There are a few members of our team still around, and at this time we > > are working towards the idea of making a stand alone game based upon our > > last mod and ioquake. > > I wonder why people are so excited about making a "standalone" game > by compiling some snapshot of ioquake3 and renaming the binary. > What's wrong with having a mod for ioquake3? I always understood that the main reason was that a mod needs a copy of quake3 (including pak0) which costs money and is also hard to find nowadays for new players. So, yeah, a standalone game doesn't need non-GPL artwork (and maybe other stuff I'm not aware of). -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 09:19:43 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:19:43 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <20080406131328.GA3936@a-chan> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080406131328.GA3936@a-chan> Message-ID: <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Tiago Resende wrote: > On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 12:09:18PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > thing wrote: > > > There are a few members of our team still around, and at this time we > > > are working towards the idea of making a stand alone game based upon our > > > last mod and ioquake. > > > > I wonder why people are so excited about making a "standalone" game > > by compiling some snapshot of ioquake3 and renaming the binary. > > What's wrong with having a mod for ioquake3? > > I always understood that the main reason was that a mod needs a copy of > quake3 (including pak0) which costs money and is also hard to find > nowadays for new players. > > So, yeah, a standalone game doesn't need non-GPL artwork (and maybe > other stuff I'm not aware of). ioquake3 doesn't need baseq3, it's just the default. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From urameshi at mailshack.com Sun Apr 6 09:32:12 2008 From: urameshi at mailshack.com (Tiago Resende) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 10:32:12 -0300 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080406131328.GA3936@a-chan> <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <20080406133212.GA4010@a-chan> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 03:19:43PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > Tiago Resende wrote: > > I always understood that the main reason was that a mod needs a copy of > > quake3 (including pak0) which costs money and is also hard to find > > nowadays for new players. > > > > So, yeah, a standalone game doesn't need non-GPL artwork (and maybe > > other stuff I'm not aware of). > > ioquake3 doesn't need baseq3, it's just the default. Well, is there a way for me to run Navy Seals: Covert Operations in a fresh copy of ioq3 I just compiled, without pak0 and a key? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Sun Apr 6 09:33:47 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:33:47 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> http://wiki.ioquake3.org/Mod_or_Standalone%3F From webmaster at groundplan.com Sun Apr 6 11:58:42 2008 From: webmaster at groundplan.com (webmaster at groundplan.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:58:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> > http://wiki.ioquake3.org/Mod_or_Standalone%3F > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > Wow, didn't expect this to turn into such a debate :) Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. In my opinion there is simply no point in just making a straight mod for Quake 3. Why would anyone want to do that now? Making mods is a lot of hard work. If we were to do an ordinary mod why would we choose the Q3 engine over a more modern engine such as D3 or UT? The point is, access to the source gives you the opportunity to make something a little different and does not require the end user to have the copyrighted id materials. Many people may not have Q3, or may have lost/ misplaced their original Quake 3 cd. That being the case you are limiting your audience. A stand-alone game is appealing precisely because it is, well, stand-alone. Each to their own though! Cheers, Tim From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sun Apr 6 12:45:31 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 18:45:31 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Message-ID: <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Sonntag, 6. April 2008, webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need > access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. Actually, the ioquake3 binary supports running games without having the id assets. You just need to +set fs_game to whatever your main directory happens to be. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 14:33:11 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:33:11 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <20080406133212.GA4010@a-chan> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080406133212.GA4010@a-chan> Message-ID: <200804062033.11565.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Tiago Resende wrote: > On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 03:19:43PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > Tiago Resende wrote: > > > I always understood that the main reason was that a mod needs a copy of > > > quake3 (including pak0) which costs money and is also hard to find > > > nowadays for new players. > > > > > > So, yeah, a standalone game doesn't need non-GPL artwork (and maybe > > > other stuff I'm not aware of). > > > > ioquake3 doesn't need baseq3, it's just the default. > > Well, is there a way for me to run Navy Seals: Covert Operations in a > fresh copy of ioq3 I just compiled, without pak0 and a key? I haven't tried that one recently but if it is self contained, sure. Wop or q3ut4 work fine for example. You cannot join servers that require cdkey authorization of course. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 14:48:49 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:48:49 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Thilo Schulz wrote: > On Sonntag, 6. April 2008, webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > > Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need > > access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. > > Actually, the ioquake3 binary supports running games without having the id > assets. You just need to +set fs_game to whatever your main directory > happens to be. Exactly. If you use a startscript/desktop icon etc a user won't notice the difference. There is also an option to use a custom master server so you don't have to use id's. We could add more such run time configuration option if there is need for it (e.g application window title, icon...). Personally I'd like to see some central tool that looks similar to loki-demos where a user can browse/download/install/run mods for ioquake3. As contributor to ioquake3 I am of course biased, I really hate if I fix something in ioquake3 then want to play some ioq3 based game and still have the bug there. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From spamhans at yahoo.de Sun Apr 6 16:14:47 2008 From: spamhans at yahoo.de (Per Hansen) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:14:47 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <47F92F37.3090903@yahoo.de> If you want to make a mod for the "id Tech 3 engine" and it should not be a totalconversion you should use OpenArena as your base! From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Sun Apr 6 16:42:57 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 22:42:57 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47F92F37.3090903@yahoo.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <47F92F37.3090903@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <200804062242.58089.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Per Hansen wrote: > If you want to make a mod for the "id Tech 3 engine" and it should not > be a totalconversion you should use OpenArena as your base! Does oa provide textures, sounds etc with the same file names as baseq3, ie can it be used as drop-in replacement for baseq3? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From urameshi at mailshack.com Sun Apr 6 16:58:23 2008 From: urameshi at mailshack.com (Tiago Resende) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:58:23 -0300 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804062033.11565.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080406133212.GA4010@a-chan> <200804062033.11565.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <20080406205823.GA5967@a-chan> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 08:33:11PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > Tiago Resende wrote: > > Well, is there a way for me to run Navy Seals: Covert Operations in a > > fresh copy of ioq3 I just compiled, without pak0 and a key? > > I haven't tried that one recently but if it is self contained, sure. > Wop or q3ut4 work fine for example. You cannot join servers that > require cdkey authorization of course. Oh, OK. I didn't know you could do that without modifying ioq3. Forget what I said, then. Sorry :) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 23:41:58 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 23:41:58 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061519.43886.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080406133212.GA4010@a-chan> <200804062033.11565.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <922D4DDB23FC487DB9F0BEFF46A8B69E@chrispc> Hello, You can download the NSCO source code from SVN. http://code.google.com/p/ns-co/ If you need any of the packs from it, Check the forums, http://www.ns-co.net/forum/ If you search for ns:co gold, you will get the download links, a couple of the first few posts include the full download, 500+ MB plus one of the links is for the ioquake3 standalone version. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ludwig Nussel" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings > Tiago Resende wrote: >> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 03:19:43PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: >> > Tiago Resende wrote: >> > > I always understood that the main reason was that a mod needs a copy >> > > of >> > > quake3 (including pak0) which costs money and is also hard to find >> > > nowadays for new players. >> > > >> > > So, yeah, a standalone game doesn't need non-GPL artwork (and maybe >> > > other stuff I'm not aware of). >> > >> > ioquake3 doesn't need baseq3, it's just the default. >> >> Well, is there a way for me to run Navy Seals: Covert Operations in a >> fresh copy of ioq3 I just compiled, without pak0 and a key? > > I haven't tried that one recently but if it is self contained, sure. > Wop or q3ut4 work fine for example. You cannot join servers that > require cdkey authorization of course. > > cu > Ludwig > > -- > (o_ Ludwig Nussel > //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development > V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From cbunting99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 23:49:10 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 23:49:10 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> Message-ID: <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> Hello, The only benefit really to creating a mod is that you can still use PunkBuster. But punkbuster is no longer updated for quake 3 from what I read. But creating a standalone game allows you to incorporate new features that ioquake3 won't have. Since my side project is mainly only windows, I started with an earlier version of ioquake3, the original one I had here, http://code.google.com/p/3dengines/ I originally placed that there to share the code. But since then, I started with a fresh q3 source and added in things like FmodEX, the use of Devil instead of the jpeg library, snow/rain/fog based on ET, GLSL and CG shaders, a new rendering engine and a ton of other things. Ioquake3 is great but in a sense, has been surpassed long ago. Search for quake 3 at sourceforge.net and you'll find Q3++, a c++ rewrite of q3, and many other modified versions with just about every feature you can think about. And then there is also the Managed C++ .Net version too, http://gregs-blog.com/2008/01/22/update-quake-3-arena-net-port-is-done/ It all depends on what you need as to whether any of the listed codebases would work for you're project. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings >> http://wiki.ioquake3.org/Mod_or_Standalone%3F >> >> --- >> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org >> Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 >> >> >> > Wow, didn't expect this to turn into such a debate :) > > Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need > access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. > > In my opinion there is simply no point in just making a straight mod for > Quake 3. Why would anyone want to do that now? Making mods is a lot of > hard work. If we were to do an ordinary mod why would we choose the Q3 > engine over a more modern engine such as D3 or UT? > > The point is, access to the source gives you the opportunity to make > something a little different and does not require the end user to have the > copyrighted id materials. Many people may not have Q3, or may have lost/ > misplaced their original Quake 3 cd. That being the case you are limiting > your audience. A stand-alone game is appealing precisely because it is, > well, stand-alone. > > Each to their own though! > > Cheers, > > Tim > > > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From tjw at webteam.net Mon Apr 7 11:02:50 2008 From: tjw at webteam.net (Tony J. White) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:02:50 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061845.40268.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 08:48:49PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > Thilo Schulz wrote: > > On Sonntag, 6. April 2008, webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > > > Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need > > > access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. > > > > Actually, the ioquake3 binary supports running games without having the id > > assets. You just need to +set fs_game to whatever your main directory > > happens to be. > > As contributor to ioquake3 I am of course biased, I really hate if I > fix something in ioquake3 then want to play some ioq3 based game and > still have the bug there. If I add a new syscall to tremulous, should I also add it to ioq3? For instance, I'm currently in the process of adding a new syscall trap_S_SoundDuration(). Should this be added to ioq3 even though it isn't used by ioq3's cgame/ui? Even though tremulous syncs from ioq3 as it's upstream, it has a very different set of syscalls because the botlib stuff has been removed, but afaik this would be the first _added_ syscall. -Tony From monk at rq3.com Mon Apr 7 19:52:52 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:52:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> Message-ID: <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> [I apologize for the length of this--I tend to get long-winded] To add my two cents, we (www.rq3.com) are trying to move from a Q3 mod to an ioq3 standalone, though it would still basically use ioq3 as a base for our QVM. We like that we have someone else making the engine for us and we can run on whatever the engine runs on. That lets us concentrate on working on the game code. I tell you, though, replacing the baseq3 media that we used as a mod has been pretty difficult. And some of our coders have been hard to get ahold of lately, too. Maybe I can sucker that Scott guy with the Q3 on the ipod touch to help out. He used to roll with us back in the day until he decided a paying job was somehow a better use of time. ;) We'll probably modify ioquake3.exe (or whatever) to become an automatic launcher for our mod, Reaction. There's an ego boost going on when you can tell people to double-click Reaction and have it launch your own GAME, even though it's using an engine developed by other people. And, somehow, it feels like when you do this, you're done. You've made it. You've progressed from making a mod to making a game. It's a psychological thing, really. We had many problems with people trying out our mod because they didn't own a legal copy of Quake 3. This honestly became a big issue. For a while the Q3 key auth servers were down so anyone could play. Once they came online again, most of our entire audience faded. This was a mod that had an Activision-sponsored online tournament with prizes being gamecasted by ol' djWheat from, I think, TSN back in the day. So getting rid of the key checking and the baseq3 media is worth it from the mod-moving-to-standalone perspective. But since we're keeping most of our code in QVM, any ioq3 updates we want to roll in should cause minimal fuss. Some people have mentioned other Q3 ports with far better features. Stuff that we, as content creators, really really like. Chris mentioned stuff like, "snow/rain/fog based on ET, GLSL and CG shaders, a new rendering engine..." The closest that ioq3 has gotten to any of that is the framebuffer/bloom work that someone here did a little while ago and of course the raytracing work being done now. XreaL, Q3Evolution, and other projects offer much better graphical goodies. However, except for Q3Evolution 1.x, they either break all our existing media or don't run on any platform except Windows. Since our team uses and games on Windows, Linux, and MacOS, that's just not something we care to pursue. Or they drop QVM support. Or they have broken bot support. Etc. This is all stuff that we either can't readily recreate or don't want to give up. It's great that a managed .NET version of Q3 has all these bells and whistles, but if it only runs on Windows, that does us no good. I wish some of these splinter projects would backport some of these extensions as patches to ioq3. But they never seem to. Raynor was kind of doing it with Q3Evolution 1.x, but mainly was merging ioq3 with some features of XreaL rather than backporting some features of XReaL into ioq3. The problem with that is that while it lets us use our current lightmapped maps and other media, we're at the mercy of one guy who may or may not be around for merging in updates and bugfixes from ioq3. As a content creator, it's frustrating. ioq3 is too solid of a foundation for us to give up, but we look longingly at some of the other projects and wish we could let our artists do what the other projects allow. For example, the MDR/MD4 support was nice except that there wasn't the right toolchain support that we could readily take advantage of it--the only tool that could create these models was Milkshape while our modelers/animators were using 3DMax and Lightwave, etc. As for making a mod for ioq3, I think that's a great idea in general. Just use ioq3 as a big ol' virtual machine like Java or QuakeC or UnrealScript or, didn't Doom 3 use a similar virtual-machine-esque thing that abstracted the game/mod code from the engine so you could write one mod and it would run on whatever platform that D3 was ported to? Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. Anyway, I'll let y'all go back to doing something productive. Thank you all very much for your continued work on ioq3! Hopefully sometime this year you'll be able to play a Reaction standalone on everything from MacOS to Slowaris or an SGI! Monk. From cameron at hermitworksentertainment.com Mon Apr 7 23:58:36 2008 From: cameron at hermitworksentertainment.com (Cameron Tofer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:58:36 -0600 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <52feb8410804072058w3b41d155m6dc9336659d6fd73@mail.gmail.com> Hey there, we're preparing to submit a bunch of patches from our Space Trader fork. some include: - skeleton models + tool + exporter - deluxe mapping - utf suport + font tool plus a bunch of fixes. we're trying to make them as clean as possible, we won't be submitting everything as we want to keep ioq3 as a clean base and not a dump for everyone's favorite features. These should be coming as soon as we get more iTouch work done. -cam On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:52 PM, wrote: > [I apologize for the length of this--I tend to get long-winded] > > To add my two cents, we (www.rq3.com) are trying to move from a Q3 mod to > an ioq3 standalone, though it would still basically use ioq3 as a base for > our QVM. We like that we have someone else making the engine for us and > we can run on whatever the engine runs on. That lets us concentrate on > working on the game code. > > I tell you, though, replacing the baseq3 media that we used as a mod has > been pretty difficult. And some of our coders have been hard to get ahold > of lately, too. Maybe I can sucker that Scott guy with the Q3 on the ipod > touch to help out. He used to roll with us back in the day until he > decided a paying job was somehow a better use of time. ;) > > We'll probably modify ioquake3.exe (or whatever) to become an automatic > launcher for our mod, Reaction. There's an ego boost going on when you > can tell people to double-click Reaction and have it launch your own GAME, > even though it's using an engine developed by other people. And, somehow, > it feels like when you do this, you're done. You've made it. You've > progressed from making a mod to making a game. It's a psychological > thing, really. > > We had many problems with people trying out our mod because they didn't > own a legal copy of Quake 3. This honestly became a big issue. For a > while the Q3 key auth servers were down so anyone could play. Once they > came online again, most of our entire audience faded. This was a mod that > had an Activision-sponsored online tournament with prizes being gamecasted > by ol' djWheat from, I think, TSN back in the day. > > So getting rid of the key checking and the baseq3 media is worth it from > the mod-moving-to-standalone perspective. > > But since we're keeping most of our code in QVM, any ioq3 updates we want > to roll in should cause minimal fuss. > > Some people have mentioned other Q3 ports with far better features. Stuff > that we, as content creators, really really like. Chris mentioned stuff > like, "snow/rain/fog based on ET, GLSL and CG shaders, a new rendering > engine..." The closest that ioq3 has gotten to any of that is the > framebuffer/bloom work that someone here did a little while ago and of > course the raytracing work being done now. > > XreaL, Q3Evolution, and other projects offer much better graphical > goodies. However, except for Q3Evolution 1.x, they either break all our > existing media or don't run on any platform except Windows. Since our > team uses and games on Windows, Linux, and MacOS, that's just not > something we care to pursue. Or they drop QVM support. Or they have > broken bot support. Etc. > > This is all stuff that we either can't readily recreate or don't want to > give up. It's great that a managed .NET version of Q3 has all these bells > and whistles, but if it only runs on Windows, that does us no good. > > I wish some of these splinter projects would backport some of these > extensions as patches to ioq3. But they never seem to. Raynor was kind > of doing it with Q3Evolution 1.x, but mainly was merging ioq3 with some > features of XreaL rather than backporting some features of XReaL into > ioq3. The problem with that is that while it lets us use our current > lightmapped maps and other media, we're at the mercy of one guy who may or > may not be around for merging in updates and bugfixes from ioq3. > > As a content creator, it's frustrating. ioq3 is too solid of a foundation > for us to give up, but we look longingly at some of the other projects and > wish we could let our artists do what the other projects allow. For > example, the MDR/MD4 support was nice except that there wasn't the right > toolchain support that we could readily take advantage of it--the only > tool that could create these models was Milkshape while our > modelers/animators were using 3DMax and Lightwave, etc. > > As for making a mod for ioq3, I think that's a great idea in general. > Just use ioq3 as a big ol' virtual machine like Java or QuakeC or > UnrealScript or, didn't Doom 3 use a similar virtual-machine-esque thing > that abstracted the game/mod code from the engine so you could write one > mod and it would run on whatever platform that D3 was ported to? > > Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our > source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration > for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're > going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. > > Anyway, I'll let y'all go back to doing something productive. Thank you > all very much for your continued work on ioq3! Hopefully sometime this > year you'll be able to play a Reaction standalone on everything from MacOS > to Slowaris or an SGI! > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 8 03:28:55 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:28:55 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <200804080928.56399.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> monk at rq3.com wrote: > We'll probably modify ioquake3.exe (or whatever) to become an automatic > launcher for our mod, Reaction. There's an ego boost going on when you > can tell people to double-click Reaction and have it launch your own GAME, > even though it's using an engine developed by other people. And, somehow, > it feels like when you do this, you're done. You've made it. You've > progressed from making a mod to making a game. It's a psychological > thing, really. Psychological issues are unfortunate. Ioq3 could be treated more like a system library than a game of it's own if that helps. After all games on Windows e.g. also sometimes force the user to upgrade things like directx from external sources. ioq3 could be extended further to make it customizable enough to make it look like a different game when launched with appropriate parameters. You can already change the mod it starts with (fs_game) and change the master server (cl_master). > So getting rid of the key checking and the baseq3 media is worth it from > the mod-moving-to-standalone perspective. For that purpose whether or not keys are checked could be made configurable. The behavior could depend on whether pak files from baseq3 are referenced (IIRC Thilo came up with this idea in IRC). If none are referenced the mod could choose to disable key checking. We should proably also enforce use of a different master server then. Kind of unfair to waste id's ressources in this case. > But since we're keeping most of our code in QVM, any ioq3 updates we want > to roll in should cause minimal fuss. The point is if you fork, even with minimal changes, you have to do the updates yourself. > Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our > source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration > for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're > going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. As long as your code is entirely based on the id sdk you have to stick with their license. If you take stuff from ioq3's GPL'd game code your code has to be GPL as well. IMO it's also highly questionable whether you can legally bundle your proprietary stuff with ioq3 and pretend that this is one product. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) From thing at groundplan.com Tue Apr 8 05:20:36 2008 From: thing at groundplan.com (thing) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:20:36 +0100 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804080928.56399.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <200804080928.56399.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <47FB38E4.4070804@groundplan.com> Hi, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > The point is if you fork, even with minimal changes, you have to do > the updates yourself. Out of interest, how much more work do you guys intend on doing to ioquake? From the notes it seems that your mainly interested in bug fixes and efficiency - how far down the line are you guys to completing that goal? Ioquake is fantastic work so far and I really like the fact that you have managed to keep compatibility with existing Q3 mods. Monk mentioned the features found in other ports, and I agree with his 'longing'. As I mentioned before, it is hard to justify spending the huge amount of time and effort making a q3 mod when newer engines have a bigger audience and more candy. The 'deal clincher' is that with the q3 source a stand alone is possible. Replacing the assets from baseq3 is no small task :) From a content creator point of view I would like to see ioquake add some features that monk mentioned. Namely, .md5 support and per pixel lighting. Mod makers would have to activate them so as to not break compatibility. I know that this isn't part of the ioquake direction, but if it were, that would be wonderful for content creators and bring significant interest to the ioquake project. We would all be happy bunnies then :) Currently we are looking at adding these features anyway but it may be held back by time constraints. > IMO it's also highly > questionable whether you can legally bundle your proprietary stuff > with ioq3 and pretend that this is one product. Are you suggesting that somebody would try and pass off ioquake as their own work? I think that would be unlikely, and quite rude. When (if? :) )we release we will make it quite clear who's source it is based upon, in the read me and in the game credits. Cheers, Tim > cu > Ludwig > From zakk at timedoctor.org Tue Apr 8 07:32:18 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:32:18 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FB57C2.4010609@timedoctor.org> monk at rq3.com wrote: > Anyway, I'll let y'all go back to doing something productive. Thank you > all very much for your continued work on ioq3! Hopefully sometime this > year you'll be able to play a Reaction standalone on everything from MacOS > to Slowaris or an SGI! > > Monk. In case anyone wasn't aware, rq3 is my favorite mod ever. It should be yours too, Won't you let the action into your life? -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From cbunting99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 08:52:46 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:52:46 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> > > Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our > source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration > for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're > going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. Hello, One of the main reasons why I choose to stick to windows is only because dll's are a bit more secure. The problem now days is that QVM's are not secure. Do you know why punkbuster no longer supports Q3? I don't know for sure but for mod authors along with all of the major game developers for Soldier of Fortune 2, Call of Duty, UrbanTerror, World of Padman and many others, their code is already out there whether the developers know it or not right along with punkbuster's q3 code. QvmKanker is only one of the many qvm decompilers. So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be specific for your game, just using the standard qvm compiler and the old q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for disassembly. Chris From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 09:12:47 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:12:47 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> Message-ID: <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> > So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be > specific for your game, just using the standard qvm compiler and the old > q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for disassembly. I fail to see the reason why this is a problem for you. If you're distributing a mod based on the code that was released under the GPL, you have to make the code accessible anyway. So there isn't even a need for a disassembler with regard to your code ... Or am I wrong on that? Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Bunting" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings > > >> Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our >> source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration >> for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're >> going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. > > Hello, > > One of the main reasons why I choose to stick to windows is only because > dll's are a bit more secure. The problem now days is that QVM's are not > secure. Do you know why punkbuster no longer supports Q3? I don't know for > sure but for mod authors along with all of the major game developers for > Soldier of Fortune 2, Call of Duty, UrbanTerror, World of Padman and many > others, their code is already out there whether the developers know it or > not right along with punkbuster's q3 code. QvmKanker is only one of the > many qvm decompilers. So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in > ioquake3 to be specific for your game, just using the standard qvm > compiler and the old q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for > disassembly. > > Chris > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From sketch at openverse.com Tue Apr 8 10:28:20 2008 From: sketch at openverse.com (Sketch) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:28:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Chris Bunting wrote: > One of the main reasons why I choose to stick to windows is only because > dll's are a bit more secure. The problem now days is that QVM's are not > secure. Do you know why punkbuster no longer supports Q3? Probably because the game is over 8 years old. > QvmKanker is only one of the many qvm decompilers. So really, unless you > are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be specific for your game, > just using the standard qvm compiler and the old q3 code will leave your > mod or game freely open for disassembly. So what you're saying is that thanks to qvm decompilers, qvm's are now just as "insecure" as dll's, which have been disassemblable since the beginning of time? From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 8 09:48:09 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:48:09 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> Message-ID: <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Tony J. White wrote: > On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 08:48:49PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > Thilo Schulz wrote: > > > On Sonntag, 6. April 2008, webmaster at groundplan.com wrote: > > > > Bottom line is this. We want to do a stand-alone game. We will not need > > > > access to any of the Id assets so therefore id's pk3 files are not needed. > > > > > > Actually, the ioquake3 binary supports running games without having the id > > > assets. You just need to +set fs_game to whatever your main directory > > > happens to be. > > > > As contributor to ioquake3 I am of course biased, I really hate if I > > fix something in ioquake3 then want to play some ioq3 based game and > > still have the bug there. > > If I add a new syscall to tremulous, should I also add it to ioq3? > > For instance, I'm currently in the process of adding a new syscall > trap_S_SoundDuration(). Should this be added to ioq3 even though > it isn't used by ioq3's cgame/ui? Well, if that's the syscall every mod developer always wanted and noone can live without anymore I guess it would be fine. I can't judge though. > Even though tremulous syncs from ioq3 as it's upstream, it has a very > different set of syscalls because the botlib stuff has been removed, but > afaik this would be the first _added_ syscall. Are the removed syscalls the only engine modification of tremulous? I always thought it was more. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 8 09:55:30 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:55:30 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FB38E4.4070804@groundplan.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804080928.56399.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FB38E4.4070804@groundplan.com> Message-ID: <200804081555.32848.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> thing wrote: > Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > The point is if you fork, even with minimal changes, you have to do > > the updates yourself. > > Out of interest, how much more work do you guys intend on doing to ioquake? > From the notes it seems that your mainly interested in bug fixes and > efficiency - how far down the line are you guys to completing that goal? That needs to be discussed individually for every case I think. What's absolutely not acceptable is anything that breaks the ability to play mods for q3 1.32. I also don't think that we should lightheartedly introduce new library dependencies or add support for file formats that have no significant advantage over already supported ones. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) From zakk at timedoctor.org Tue Apr 8 10:04:52 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:04:52 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804081555.32848.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804080928.56399.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FB38E4.4070804@groundplan.com> <200804081555.32848.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <47FB7B84.6060203@timedoctor.org> Ludwig Nussel wrote: > That needs to be discussed individually for every case I think. > What's absolutely not acceptable is anything that breaks the ability > to play mods for q3 1.32. I also don't think that we should > lightheartedly introduce new library dependencies or add support for > file formats that have no significant advantage over already > supported ones. Yep. Quake 3 mod support will remain as-is. Though I'm certainly interested in some kind of pluggable rendering system, and better tools for developers. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From tjw at webteam.net Tue Apr 8 11:54:39 2008 From: tjw at webteam.net (Tony J. White) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:54:39 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:48:09PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > > If I add a new syscall to tremulous, should I also add it to ioq3? > > > > For instance, I'm currently in the process of adding a new syscall > > trap_S_SoundDuration(). Should this be added to ioq3 even though > > it isn't used by ioq3's cgame/ui? > > Well, if that's the syscall every mod developer always wanted and > noone can live without anymore I guess it would be fine. I can't > judge though. Yeah, that's the problem. All I know is that I need it for Tremulous. I guess zakk has to decide if it is worth shoving down everyone else's throats :) > > Even though tremulous syncs from ioq3 as it's upstream, it has a very > > different set of syscalls because the botlib stuff has been removed, but > > afaik this would be the first _added_ syscall. > > Are the removed syscalls the only engine modification of tremulous? > I always thought it was more. Aside from botlib removal, the other engine modifications are the same ones that everyone else makes (AFAIK anyway): 1) remove all Quake 3 Arena pak/cd/auth checking stuff 2) change the BASEDIR 3) change the Windows and Mac icons 4) change the Makefile / build scripts 5) change the Quake 3 Arena hardcoded strings and paths Any new engine features or bugfixes go into straight into ioq3 and then get pulled into trem at a later date (e.g. GUID support, cURL support, Mac OS X support, etc). -Tony From tim at ngus.net Tue Apr 8 12:42:18 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:42:18 +0100 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> Message-ID: <47FBA06A.6060800@ngus.net> Tony J. White wrote: >> Are the removed syscalls the only engine modification of tremulous? >> I always thought it was more. > > Aside from botlib removal, the other engine modifications are the same ones > that everyone else makes (AFAIK anyway): > > 1) remove all Quake 3 Arena pak/cd/auth checking stuff > 2) change the BASEDIR > 3) change the Windows and Mac icons > 4) change the Makefile / build scripts > 5) change the Quake 3 Arena hardcoded strings and paths > > Any new engine features or bugfixes go into straight into ioq3 and then > get pulled into trem at a later date (e.g. GUID support, cURL support, > Mac OS X support, etc). There are network protocol changes and some extra engine callbacks too. For me the extra flexibility garnered by running a separate tree outweighs any perceived benefit that results from keeping things modular. Providing you re-merge regularly and be mindful that this process occurs, it's not really a great deal of effort. I should point out that the main reason for making Trem standalone was to improve its visibility. Before GPL Q3, Trem had at the most about 100 players of which it was rare to get more than about 15 together at once. Of the handful of servers that did exist, the majority of them were idle all the time. Contrast this to now, where we have about 200 servers and 5500 players *per day*. Alright, this is all rather empirical, but it would be ignorant to claim there is no link between its standalone status and its current popularity. Of course, in an ideal world where everybody ran the same OS with a package manager and ioq3 could be extended without having to maintain legacy support, modularity would be great. Mods just don't get the same exposure they once did and for the majority of the world they're frustrating to install and maintain due to the lack of installation management tools. In other words it's just not practical, in my opinion. From cbunting99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 14:25:32 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:25:32 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> Message-ID: Hello, Well, most people who actually mod the main quake 3 source code are supposed to release their source code, but not many mod authors offer the code. Most mods are closed source and are only distributed via the compiled qvm's. Why do you think that ID released the Doom 3 demo with a compiled .dll and not the qvms for windows. Just because you can look at that mod sdk doesn't help with those who are wanting to see any of the major code changes to the rendering engines and such. If you download urban terror or world of padman's source, you get nothing more than the stock ioquake3 source, they don't release any major engine enhancements, they are only giving back the stock code with the basic changes needed to run their mods. Checksum checks diabled, cdkey checks removed, pack checks ect. But still, you won't get the source for many of those mods, just the qvm's. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan Reiter" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings >> So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be >> specific for your game, just using the standard qvm compiler and the old >> q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for disassembly. > > I fail to see the reason why this is a problem for you. If you're > distributing a mod based on the code that was released under the GPL, you > have to make the code accessible anyway. So there isn't even a need for a > disassembler with regard to your code ... > > Or am I wrong on that? > Stephan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Bunting" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings > > >> > >>> Though I suppose that if the QVM still runs on baseq3, we could keep our >>> source closed, if we really wanted to. So that might be a consideration >>> for making an ioq3 mod instead of directly modifying the engine. We're >>> going full opensource, planned to do it since day one. >> >> Hello, >> >> One of the main reasons why I choose to stick to windows is only because >> dll's are a bit more secure. The problem now days is that QVM's are not >> secure. Do you know why punkbuster no longer supports Q3? I don't know >> for sure but for mod authors along with all of the major game developers >> for Soldier of Fortune 2, Call of Duty, UrbanTerror, World of Padman and >> many others, their code is already out there whether the developers know >> it or not right along with punkbuster's q3 code. QvmKanker is only one of >> the many qvm decompilers. So really, unless you are going to rework the >> vm in ioquake3 to be specific for your game, just using the standard qvm >> compiler and the old q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for >> disassembly. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> --- >> To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org >> Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 >> >> > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 8 14:31:10 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:31:10 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FBA06A.6060800@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <47FBA06A.6060800@ngus.net> Message-ID: <200804082031.10543.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Tim Angus wrote: > Of course, in an ideal world where everybody ran the same OS with a > package manager and ioq3 could be extended without having to maintain > legacy support, modularity would be great. Mods just don't get the same > exposure they once did and for the majority of the world they're > frustrating to install and maintain due to the lack of installation > management tools. In other words it's just not practical, in my opinion. Well, games on Linux use loki-setup and that one stores where a game is installed. I've added a sample setup.xml to svn recently that can be used by a mod. It installs the mod as component of ioquake3. I think the Installer on Windows also registers ioquake3 in the registry so mod installers there will find the correct place as well. So installing a mod is not more complicated that the engine. Of course installing as component of ioquake3 still allows you to use a custom startup script and desktop icon. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 00:19:50 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3-bugzilla] [Bug 3593] New: voting system is insecure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2378.64.81.110.230.1207714790.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> I thought there was a bug/feature request about being able to kick by player id or guid or something, rather than name? Man it's been a while but I think on Q2 when someone with rcon typed something like "playerlist" it got a list of names and numbers, like: 0 Monk 1 Zakk 2 Loser And I think there was some ability to do "rcon kick #" or some such. It might have been a mod extension in Q2, but it got around the name issue. I had thought someone on this list had brought it up a year or so ago, but I don't recall offhand. If it's not already a feature, it might make sense to add as an additional command, like, "rcon kickclient #" or some such, as long as there's a command that can display the playername/# association. I'd test myself, but I currently broke my 3D card, 2 hard drives, and some capacitors on my motherboard so I can't do much stress on the system. Heheh, dangit. Monk. > http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3593 > > I will defer talking about possibilities of votekick-proof names, there > are many. From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 00:48:52 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:48:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> Message-ID: <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> [please do not mistake my length of emails for me being angry or flaming--I'm just verbose!] The mod that I work on, Reaction Quake 3 (now called "Reaction"), is basically a port of the Quake 2 mod Action Quake 2 to the Q3 engine. It had a source release of AQ2 version 1.52. Many many projects (40+ that I know of) sprang forth and added a ton of different features and options. By the time we started making RQ3, the concept of "AQ2" was muddied by the playerbase. In north america, the "standard" was one fork. In europe, the "standard" was another fork. The RQ3 team is comprised of people from all over the world (had an Aussie for a while too). How to reconcile what we were making with what people thought we should be making? The way I approached this was to set a baseline of the original AQ2 1.52 featureset. Whatever else we did, we had to replicate the gameplay of AQ2 1.52. Once we had that down, it didn't matter if we extended the gameplay to emulate any of the forks as long as it was configurable by the server admin. The point was that no matter what, we had that one baseline that everyone could fall back to. When you discuss shoving a new syscall down everyone's throats, to me I am interpreting this as a programmer talking. A programmer doesn't want a ton of extraneous fluff in their code. If the code's not being used, why keep it around? Tight, easy-to-read code is the ideal. However, from an end-user or mod-creator perspective, you can't take advantage of what's not available. Adding a new syscall or extending ioq3 is not the same thing as changing the default behavior and compability, right? It's the same situation as though some mods weren't using some syscalls. Is that a reason to remove them? Do they hurt anything by being available to be used? Not in my mind. In RQ3 we added a bunch of new map entities and abilities; breakable glass, exploding things when shot, door handles that moved, etc. If I recall correctly, we were able to easily modify the existing mapping tool (gtkradiant?) to expose the new functionality for our mod. Adding new syscalls and abilities to ioq3 shouldn't be a problem. As long as someone knows how to use them, they will be using them with full knowledge that using them will break their game's compatibility with baseq3 1.32. It's not your job to make sure mod creators or someone forking ioq3 makes their game work on baseq3 1.32. It's your job to make sure ioq3 doesn't break existing, legacy mods. (hehhe "job", you know what I mean...) As long as extending ioq3 doesn't break anything and it works on most (all, ideally) platforms, I don't see why you couldn't include new things. Sure, propose an extension, discuss its merits, decide if it's something that people are wanting or using in the real world. Don't just include every ol' thing of questionable value. But ioq3 is such a solid base, if there's a demand or inclination to expand its abilities, why not? As long as ioq3's stated goal of improving the q3 game engine without breaking background compatibility is met, good times! Older mods won't magically use the new extensions, so they could never magically stop working on baseq3. With RQ3, when we added new things like cvars and whatnot, we popped RQ3 in the names. As example, some related cvars: g_allowvote g_RQ3_vote_waittime g_RQ3_maxClientVotes If a coder or mod team can't figure out that using something like "trap_S_ioq3_SoundDuration()" is going to make their mod not work on baseq3 1.32 code, then they probably shouldn't be coding to begin with. Anyway, that's my thoughts on it. As long as ioq3 runs things that ran on baseq3 1.32, there's no reason not to extend it--as long as there's a rational, consistent method for the extensions. Something that makes sense to you guys doing all the work. ;) Monk. > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:48:09PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: >> > If I add a new syscall to tremulous, should I also add it to ioq3? >> > >> > For instance, I'm currently in the process of adding a new syscall >> > trap_S_SoundDuration(). Should this be added to ioq3 even though >> > it isn't used by ioq3's cgame/ui? >> >> Well, if that's the syscall every mod developer always wanted and >> noone can live without anymore I guess it would be fine. I can't >> judge though. > > Yeah, that's the problem. All I know is that I need it for Tremulous. > I guess zakk has to decide if it is worth shoving down everyone else's > throats :) From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 01:06:52 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 00:06:52 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804082206l494ba4ecyda2dd71abbef59b2@mail.gmail.com> Well said. I completely agree. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:48 PM, wrote: > [please do not mistake my length of emails for me being angry or > flaming--I'm just verbose!] > > The mod that I work on, Reaction Quake 3 (now called "Reaction"), is > basically a port of the Quake 2 mod Action Quake 2 to the Q3 engine. It > had a source release of AQ2 version 1.52. Many many projects (40+ that I > know of) sprang forth and added a ton of different features and options. > > By the time we started making RQ3, the concept of "AQ2" was muddied by the > playerbase. In north america, the "standard" was one fork. In europe, > the "standard" was another fork. The RQ3 team is comprised of people from > all over the world (had an Aussie for a while too). > > How to reconcile what we were making with what people thought we should be > making? The way I approached this was to set a baseline of the original > AQ2 1.52 featureset. Whatever else we did, we had to replicate the > gameplay of AQ2 1.52. Once we had that down, it didn't matter if we > extended the gameplay to emulate any of the forks as long as it was > configurable by the server admin. > > The point was that no matter what, we had that one baseline that everyone > could fall back to. > > When you discuss shoving a new syscall down everyone's throats, to me I am > interpreting this as a programmer talking. A programmer doesn't want a > ton of extraneous fluff in their code. If the code's not being used, why > keep it around? Tight, easy-to-read code is the ideal. > > However, from an end-user or mod-creator perspective, you can't take > advantage of what's not available. Adding a new syscall or extending ioq3 > is not the same thing as changing the default behavior and compability, > right? It's the same situation as though some mods weren't using some > syscalls. Is that a reason to remove them? Do they hurt anything by > being available to be used? Not in my mind. > > In RQ3 we added a bunch of new map entities and abilities; breakable > glass, exploding things when shot, door handles that moved, etc. If I > recall correctly, we were able to easily modify the existing mapping tool > (gtkradiant?) to expose the new functionality for our mod. > > Adding new syscalls and abilities to ioq3 shouldn't be a problem. As long > as someone knows how to use them, they will be using them with full > knowledge that using them will break their game's compatibility with > baseq3 1.32. > > It's not your job to make sure mod creators or someone forking ioq3 makes > their game work on baseq3 1.32. It's your job to make sure ioq3 doesn't > break existing, legacy mods. (hehhe "job", you know what I mean...) As > long as extending ioq3 doesn't break anything and it works on most (all, > ideally) platforms, I don't see why you couldn't include new things. > > Sure, propose an extension, discuss its merits, decide if it's something > that people are wanting or using in the real world. Don't just include > every ol' thing of questionable value. But ioq3 is such a solid base, if > there's a demand or inclination to expand its abilities, why not? As long > as ioq3's stated goal of improving the q3 game engine without breaking > background compatibility is met, good times! > > Older mods won't magically use the new extensions, so they could never > magically stop working on baseq3. With RQ3, when we added new things like > cvars and whatnot, we popped RQ3 in the names. As example, some related > cvars: > > g_allowvote > g_RQ3_vote_waittime > g_RQ3_maxClientVotes > > If a coder or mod team can't figure out that using something like > "trap_S_ioq3_SoundDuration()" is going to make their mod not work on > baseq3 1.32 code, then they probably shouldn't be coding to begin with. > > Anyway, that's my thoughts on it. As long as ioq3 runs things that ran on > baseq3 1.32, there's no reason not to extend it--as long as there's a > rational, consistent method for the extensions. Something that makes > sense to you guys doing all the work. ;) > > Monk. > > > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:48:09PM +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote: > >> > If I add a new syscall to tremulous, should I also add it to ioq3? > >> > > >> > For instance, I'm currently in the process of adding a new syscall > >> > trap_S_SoundDuration(). Should this be added to ioq3 even though > >> > it isn't used by ioq3's cgame/ui? > >> > >> Well, if that's the syscall every mod developer always wanted and > >> noone can live without anymore I guess it would be fine. I can't > >> judge though. > > > > Yeah, that's the problem. All I know is that I need it for Tremulous. > > I guess zakk has to decide if it is worth shoving down everyone else's > > throats :) > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vectorpoem at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 01:36:02 2008 From: vectorpoem at gmail.com (JP LeBreton) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:36:02 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> I'm coming to this discussion from yet another perspective, that of an indie developer looking for a good engine to build a new game from. Q3 is a good solid engine I have prior experience with, I don't really need current graphics tech (normal maps, etc) to get the art style I'm after, and my game isn't wildly dissimilar from existing FPS games that use the tech. So ioq3 was the best option I arrived at comparing it with other projects like Ogre3D where I'd have had to do more systems building - I'm a designer first and a programmer second, so coding up a collision or network system is out of the question. It sounds like one subtext of this discussion has been "how progressive should ioq3 be in adding new features?" If I'm reading the "NOTTODO" list correctly, Zakk et al are not interested in making ioq3 an all-singing/dancing thing you can easily make any sort of game with. Personally I think there's great value in having a stable, conservative base that just cares about stability and faithfulness (historical preservation, in a sense) to a single, well-liked game like Q3A, especially one that has a lot of user content and mods. On the other hand, I'm pretty interested in the idea of a more progressive branch of ioq3 that's targeted at devs who want to make a new game. Call it, say, the "Open3 Engine". The content paks it requires would be very small (<10MB) and very vanilla, sort of like the Unreal Runtime if you remember that, but with a proper free license. Remove all the Q3A-specific gameplay code, leave in some samples for common gameplay features, like "generic projectile weapon", a humanoid avatar, etc. Merge in engine-level changes from ioq3 regularly. Additions to this sort of project would be judged on the basis of what new power they give devs using it. I merged the Tremulous particle and trail system into my ioq3 project (sorry, no patch for ioq3 yet) because it made doing good visual FX much easier... things like that. I'm more than happy to put my money where my mouth is and start up a new project for Open3 Engine, but I promised myself I'd finish my game ( http://vectorpoem.com/purity ) first. If it's intended as a base for future developers, it's worth doing right, with as many smart interested people involved as possible, and thinking through the design so it's as extensible as possible - again, these are things ioq3 needn't bother with, it's good at what it does already. If nothing else, this would have great value to people faced with what I just finished doing - removing all the Q3A pk3 content to make Purity standalone and 100% freely distributable. Hope this wasn't too much of a tangent, but it's been on my mind lately and thought it was worth throwing out there. Anyone else interested in this idea of a vanilla engine? -JP From zakk at timedoctor.org Wed Apr 9 02:23:00 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:23:00 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> I can open another svn repo for that kind of thing if people are interested in developing it. (Though the name Open3 is terrible, I'm sure I can think of something else.) -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From zakk at timedoctor.org Wed Apr 9 02:33:42 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:33:42 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FC6346.5020709@timedoctor.org> monk at rq3.com wrote: > The mod that I work on, Reaction Quake 3 (now called "Reaction"), is ...Awesome! > It's not your job to make sure mod creators or someone forking ioq3 makes > their game work on baseq3 1.32. It's your job to make sure ioq3 doesn't > break existing, legacy mods. (hehhe "job", you know what I mean...) As > long as extending ioq3 doesn't break anything and it works on most (all, > ideally) platforms, I don't see why you couldn't include new things. What I mean by 1.32 compat is always not breaking existing mods. There isn't anything else to think about with regard to that > Anyway, that's my thoughts on it. As long as ioq3 runs things that ran on > baseq3 1.32, there's no reason not to extend it--as long as there's a > rational, consistent method for the extensions. Something that makes > sense to you guys doing all the work. ;) > > Monk. Yep. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From vectorpoem at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 02:47:11 2008 From: vectorpoem at gmail.com (JP LeBreton) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:47:11 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> Zachary Slater wrote: > (Though the name Open3 is terrible, I'm sure I can think of something > else.) And that's why I'm not a marketing guy, I guess. From jorgepblank at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 03:12:30 2008 From: jorgepblank at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Pe=F1a?=) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 00:12:30 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> Gleam? (*Completely random*). Or do you guys want to go with something similar to Quake, such as Tremor? Or are we going with a generic name such as Open blah, or ioq3 - blah? On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:47 PM, JP LeBreton wrote: > Zachary Slater wrote: > > > (Though the name Open3 is terrible, I'm sure I can think of something > > else.) > > > > And that's why I'm not a marketing guy, I guess. > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Wed Apr 9 04:06:13 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:06:13 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47FC78F5.3080900@timedoctor.org> Jorge Pe?a wrote: > Gleam? (/Completely random/). Or do you guys want to go with something > similar to Quake, such as Tremor? Or are we going with a generic name > such as Open blah, or ioq3 - blah? I'd just give it a goofy name like ioquake3xp or something for now. Once there is something to actually play it can get a better name. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 04:13:33 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:13:33 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Open" is like THE most overused prefix of all times. I hate it ... Other than that I think it is a very good idea to create a second, more progressive version of ioquake3. I'd love to contribute to that, e.g. by adding per-pixel lighting, ambient occlusion, etc. :-) Stephan Am 09.04.2008 um 09:12 schrieb Jorge Pe?a: > Gleam? (Completely random). Or do you guys want to go with > something similar to Quake, such as Tremor? Or are we going with a > generic name such as Open blah, or ioq3 - blah? > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:47 PM, JP LeBreton > wrote: > Zachary Slater wrote: > (Though the name Open3 is terrible, I'm sure I can think of > something else.) > > And that's why I'm not a marketing guy, I guess. > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zakk at timedoctor.org Wed Apr 9 06:04:53 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:04:53 +0900 Subject: New Shit. Message-ID: <47FC94C5.8010801@timedoctor.org> Being a nerd, I like having more e-mail addresses than my e-mail client has room for. If you've submitted a patch to ioquake3, or are one of my best pals, you can now have a gmail-esque @ioquake.org There will also be some jabber and whatever other shit we get from them. It seems pretty cool, though I don't want to turn ioquake.org into some kind of 1997 geocities era dumping ground. So, please tell me if this google services for domains shit is shit. Anyway, if you want any of that, e-mail me with the username you want and I'll hook your ass up with a temporary password, then you can log in at start.ioquake.org and start e-mailing people claiming to be ryan gorodon, foundar of iwowqwake4. Also, http://photoshopdisasters.blogspot.com/2008/04/curves-cereal-lid-said-flesh-tone.html Enjoy. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From tim at ngus.net Wed Apr 9 06:43:34 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:43:34 +0100 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804082031.10543.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <47FBA06A.6060800@ngus.net> <200804082031.10543.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <47FC9DD6.2040508@ngus.net> Ludwig Nussel wrote: > I think the Installer on Windows also registers ioquake3 in the > registry so mod installers there will find the correct place as well. > So installing a mod is not more complicated that the engine. > > Of course installing as component of ioquake3 still allows you to use > a custom startup script and desktop icon. Yeah, we did both of these things for Trem when it was still a Q3 mod. I accept that in this case Q3 was still a(n old) commercial game and Trem required Q3 assets. It all comes down to end user ease of use, where the end users are (no offence anyone, but this is my experience) not much more computer literate than a one celled organism. Having to install two things is an insurmountable hurdle. Technical/flexibility issues aside, if you had a portable distribution platform for ioq3, I can almost see things working. Something like a mini-Steam(tm). From zakk at timedoctor.org Wed Apr 9 06:46:04 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:46:04 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FC9DD6.2040508@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <47FBA06A.6060800@ngus.net> <200804082031.10543.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FC9DD6.2040508@ngus.net> Message-ID: <47FC9E6C.60403@timedoctor.org> Tim Angus wrote: > Technical/flexibility issues aside, if you had a portable distribution > platform for ioq3, I can almost see things working. Something like a > mini-Steam(tm). Cool. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Wed Apr 9 10:40:30 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:40:30 +0200 Subject: IPv6 multicast scanning Message-ID: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hello, I just committed another series of changes to facilitate server scanning via IPv6 on a local subnet. Windows and Linux are o.k., I'd just like to get word from the MacOSX / Solaris / *BSD front and possibly other supported operating systems whether everything compiles fine. Would be grand if you could also test the scanning itself :) By the way, don't be surprised if servers turn up as "IPX" .. this is still from the old UI VM which needs to be updated to show a correct "UDP6". -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From slack at developersteam.com.br Wed Apr 9 08:39:23 2008 From: slack at developersteam.com.br (dt.Sl4cK*] - [Developers Team) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:39:23 -0300 Subject: cl_guid = unknown In-Reply-To: <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> Hi All! Can anyone explain me because a user who showed the cl_guid usually from one day to another day began to appear as a cl_guid unknown on log. What is the reason, or which can generate this guid as unknown? Tkz, [dt.Sl4cK*] From tjw at webteam.net Wed Apr 9 12:25:46 2008 From: tjw at webteam.net (Tony J. White) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:25:46 -0500 Subject: [quake3] cl_guid = unknown In-Reply-To: <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> Message-ID: <20080409162546.GF24960@morbo.webteam.net> On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 09:39:23AM -0300, [dt.Sl4cK*] - [Developers Team] wrote: > Can anyone explain me because a user who showed the cl_guid usually from > one day to another day began to appear as a cl_guid unknown on log. > > What is the reason, or which can generate this guid as unknown? That used to be the default guid value prior to Feb 12, 2007. http://svn.icculus.org/quake3/trunk/code/qcommon/md5.c?r1=1041&r2=1040&pathrev=1041 "unknown" was set as the guid when the client could not read the qkey file (e.g. if qkey could not be created because of permissions problems). With a modern build, the guid would just be a blank string in this case just like a id q3 client with pb disabled. -Tony From bougard.g at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 12:23:53 2008 From: bougard.g at gmail.com (G) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:23:53 +0200 Subject: [quake3] cl_guid = unknown In-Reply-To: <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> Message-ID: <1207758233.3409.6.camel@tunnel-mx1> Hi, I still analyzed this kind of problem for WQ3 mod and it seems related to the MOD. If the player uses always the same ioq3 installation to play your MOD, it should always send a cl_guid correctly generated by ioq3 code (but it could not with older versions). But, if for any reason, the player uses another engine, as the original Q3 engine, the cl_guid is not generated in the same way. It could be set if the player use a CD key, but it could be not set and leaved to 'unknown'... That's all. It seems cl_guid could only be reliable if it is used directly in the MOD in the same way than ioq3 implementation. But this must be validated. Le mercredi 09 avril 2008 ? 09:39 -0300, [dt.Sl4cK*] - [Developers Team] a ?crit : > Hi All! > > Can anyone explain me because a user who showed the cl_guid usually from > one day to another day began to appear as a cl_guid unknown on log. > > What is the reason, or which can generate this guid as unknown? > > Tkz, > > [dt.Sl4cK*] > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From thebenmachine at googlemail.com Wed Apr 9 13:50:13 2008 From: thebenmachine at googlemail.com (Ben Millwood) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:50:13 +0100 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning In-Reply-To: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: I can confirm that svn1305 compiles on Intel Leopard and on PPC Tiger. On the latter, though, I do get this: code/qcommon/net_ip.c: In function 'Sys_IsLANAddress': code/qcommon/net_ip.c:661: warning: 'addrsize' may be used uninitialized in this function code/qcommon/net_ip.c:663: warning: 'compareadr' may be used uninitialized in this function code/qcommon/net_ip.c:663: warning: 'comparemask' may be used uninitialized in this function code/qcommon/net_ip.c:663: warning: 'compareip' may be used uninitialized in this function Can't test it without getting openarena or something, maybe I'll do that later. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 14:44:43 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:44:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > Other than that I think it is a very good idea to create a second, > more progressive version of ioquake3. I'd love to contribute to that, > e.g. by adding per-pixel lighting, ambient occlusion, etc. I would wonder if a fork is a good idea? This is the situation we currently have with XReaL et al. Forks with extra goodies. But everyone tends to go back to the base ioq3 for bugfixes and to build with. Would people keep a fork sync'ed up? And how would the fork distinguish itself from other fork projects? Would the fork start breaking compatibility or lose the ability to run on other operating systems and platforms? If the base ioq3 were extended, it would be valuable because: 1) the code would always be up-to-date, no need to merge in fixes 2) you don't split mindshare between the "original" and "new" (marketing thinking, 'ere? one-stop shopping?) 3) it would force any extensions to take into account the many platforms that ioq3 already runs on (one of the great values for us in ioq3 over, say, XReaL or one of those .NET ports) 4) it would force any extensions to take into account being able to run existing baseq3 media, i.e. XReaL supports neat things but does NOT support older lightmapped maps so our existing content (and pretty much all existing Q3 content) is not available for use in that engine If you extend ioq3 and it doesn't hurt backward compatibility, is there a good reason to fork? If people just don't like that idea, ok, I get it. But forking seems like it would just require more maintenance and might end up splitting attention. Anything the list discusses that they don't want to include in the base ioq3 or can't come to a consensus on, they can always publish as a patch like is currently done, I'd think. Monk. From tjw at webteam.net Wed Apr 9 14:55:26 2008 From: tjw at webteam.net (Tony J. White) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:55:26 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Re: [quake3-bugzilla] [Bug 3593] New: voting system is insecure In-Reply-To: <2378.64.81.110.230.1207714790.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <2378.64.81.110.230.1207714790.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <20080409185526.GA19796@morbo.webteam.net> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:19:50PM -0600, monk at rq3.com wrote: > I thought there was a bug/feature request about being able to kick by > player id or guid or something, rather than name? Man it's been a while > but I think on Q2 when someone with rcon typed something like "playerlist" > it got a list of names and numbers, like: > > 0 Monk > 1 Zakk > 2 Loser > > And I think there was some ability to do "rcon kick #" or some such. It > might have been a mod extension in Q2, but it got around the name issue. > > I had thought someone on this list had brought it up a year or so ago, but > I don't recall offhand. If it's not already a feature, it might make > sense to add as an additional command, like, "rcon kickclient #" or some > such, as long as there's a command that can display the playername/# > association. There is already a clientkick server command and the status command gives the clientNums. -Tony From trebor_7 at gmx.net Wed Apr 9 15:42:06 2008 From: trebor_7 at gmx.net (Robert Beckebans) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:42:06 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> I would like to clearify a few things about XreaL because many people complain about the incompatibility with existing mods assets: XreaL was not initially based on the IOQuake 3 project at all. I merged it later with IOQuake 3 because I don't want to maintain so much platform dependent code. It is a different project with complete different project goals. Another thing: adding advanced rendering stuff like per pixel lighting, VBO based scene management (the Q3A geometry per vertex processing is crap) requires many changes to the shader scripting language that aren't obvious for most non-OpenGL gurus. You might be able to hack it together that it works somehow with the Q3A .shader language but you won't be able to redesign the renderer with newer rendering techniques without breaking compatibility in a few ways. If you compare the material languages of Q3A and Doom 3 then you can see that Doom 3's material language is designed for a more modern renderer because most keywords work on a per-object base instead on a per-vertex base. You can add per-pixel lighting to the IOQuake 3 renderer while sticking with the old shader language and get it to work with Q3A's geometry tesselation at runtime but it will be highly inefficient and slow. Q3A's renderer design was good when it was released but GFX programming evolves really fast. Much faster than many other disciplines around game programming. The old renderer design distracts many experienced OpenGL programmers because it is way too CPU bound with todays hardware. It really does not matter to upgrade to a newer GPU with the old renderer design. You will be always CPU bound by the geometry tesselator when you try to put a few custom models into your map with many polygons. That's usually not a problem when you have a renderer that uses VBOs in a clever way. It's not clever to update VBOs every frame like in a very early IOQuake 3 patch. You need static VBOs that are created at map load to speed up the rendering performance so 200 000 or 500 000 triangles per frame will be no problem. Q3A even pre-tesselated bezier curves at map load and post-tesselated them into triangles in the renderer backend every frame. Most of my OpenGL coder friends who saw that piece of code just said: WTF. It was a good idea in 1999 though. I implemented a more modern renderer on top of Q3A that supports all that per-pixel lighting crap, efficient VBO geometry management and even directional light mapping with Doom 3 maps. However power has a price and the price is breaking assets compatibility this time. >> Other than that I think it is a very good idea to create a second, >> more progressive version of ioquake3. I'd love to contribute to that, >> e.g. by adding per-pixel lighting, ambient occlusion, etc. >> > > I would wonder if a fork is a good idea? This is the situation we > currently have with XReaL et al. Forks with extra goodies. But everyone > tends to go back to the base ioq3 for bugfixes and to build with. > > Would people keep a fork sync'ed up? And how would the fork distinguish > itself from other fork projects? Would the fork start breaking > compatibility or lose the ability to run on other operating systems and > platforms? > > If the base ioq3 were extended, it would be valuable because: > > 1) the code would always be up-to-date, no need to merge in fixes > 2) you don't split mindshare between the "original" and "new" (marketing > thinking, 'ere? one-stop shopping?) > 3) it would force any extensions to take into account the many platforms > that ioq3 already runs on (one of the great values for us in ioq3 over, > say, XReaL or one of those .NET ports) > 4) it would force any extensions to take into account being able to run > existing baseq3 media, i.e. XReaL supports neat things but does NOT > support older lightmapped maps so our existing content (and pretty much > all existing Q3 content) is not available for use in that engine > > If you extend ioq3 and it doesn't hurt backward compatibility, is there a > good reason to fork? If people just don't like that idea, ok, I get it. > But forking seems like it would just require more maintenance and might > end up splitting attention. > > Anything the list discusses that they don't want to include in the base > ioq3 or can't come to a consensus on, they can always publish as a patch > like is currently done, I'd think. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slack at developersteam.com.br Wed Apr 9 13:26:36 2008 From: slack at developersteam.com.br (dt.Sl4cK*] - [Developers Team) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:26:36 -0300 Subject: [quake3] cl_guid = unknown In-Reply-To: <20080409162546.GF24960@morbo.webteam.net> References: <200803281610.50431.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47EF64BD.8010902@timedoctor.org> <200804031000.58159.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47FCB8FB.2090901@developersteam.com.br> <20080409162546.GF24960@morbo.webteam.net> Message-ID: <47FCFC4C.9050101@developersteam.com.br> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jorgepblank at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 16:45:33 2008 From: jorgepblank at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Pe=F1a?=) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:45:33 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> Message-ID: <28406b400804091345p3b7bc25bjc7032905557c1498@mail.gmail.com> Alright so the questions are whether or not we should fork, because it would require us to keep up with the bug fixes etc. from the base ioq3. Also, if we do go through with this, it's almost certain that compatibility will be broken (*Or that's what I understood from Robert*). monk gives some good reasons to just extend the base though: 1) the code would always be up-to-date, no need to merge in fixes 2) you don't split mindshare between the "original" and "new" (marketing thinking, 'ere? one-stop shopping?) So just to be clear, by 'just extend the base', do you mean to just work on ioq3 itself, not fork it or anything but work on it directly? In other words, ditch the whole 'we just want to be the original Q3 engine with bug fixes, optimizations, etc'. For the reasons you mentioned, that would be a good idea. The question then would be, what about all the people who just want the base, original Q3 engine with bug fixes etc., where will they go now? But then again, is that really a problem? How many people actually want that? (*Of course we could think of existing projects I guess...*) If we work on the base engine itself, it would force people to adapt. Or we could always just do something like this: get to a point in the ioq3 engine where we can agree we've worked on it enough, and feature freeze it. Then fork it and focus everything on the new engine, while occasionally even patching the original ioq3 engine if need be. If we develop optimizations and other things on the new engine which can benefit and are compatible with the original ioq3 engine, we can patch it. Just an idea. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Robert Beckebans wrote: > I would like to clearify a few things about XreaL because many people > complain about the incompatibility with existing mods assets: > > XreaL was not initially based on the IOQuake 3 project at all. I merged it > later with IOQuake 3 because I don't want to maintain so much platform > dependent code. It is a different project with complete different project > goals. > > Another thing: adding advanced rendering stuff like per pixel lighting, > VBO based scene management (the Q3A geometry per vertex processing is crap) > requires many changes to the shader scripting language that aren't obvious > for most non-OpenGL gurus. > You might be able to hack it together that it works somehow with the Q3A > .shader language but you won't be able to redesign the renderer with newer > rendering techniques without breaking compatibility in a few ways. > If you compare the material languages of Q3A and Doom 3 then you can see > that Doom 3's material language is designed for a more modern renderer > because most keywords work on a per-object base instead on a per-vertex > base. > You can add per-pixel lighting to the IOQuake 3 renderer while sticking > with the old shader language and get it to work with Q3A's geometry > tesselation at runtime but it will be highly inefficient and slow. > Q3A's renderer design was good when it was released but GFX programming > evolves really fast. Much faster than many other disciplines around game > programming. > The old renderer design distracts many experienced OpenGL programmers > because it is way too CPU bound with todays hardware. > It really does not matter to upgrade to a newer GPU with the old renderer > design. You will be always CPU bound by the geometry tesselator when you try > to put a few custom models into your map with many polygons. That's usually > not a problem when you have a renderer that uses VBOs in a clever way. It's > not clever to update VBOs every frame like in a very early IOQuake 3 patch. > You need static VBOs that are created at map load to speed up the rendering > performance so 200 000 or 500 000 triangles per frame will be no problem. > Q3A even pre-tesselated bezier curves at map load and post-tesselated them > into triangles in the renderer backend every frame. Most of my OpenGL coder > friends who saw that piece of code just said: WTF. It was a good idea in > 1999 though. > I implemented a more modern renderer on top of Q3A that supports all that > per-pixel lighting crap, efficient VBO geometry management and even > directional light mapping with Doom 3 maps. > However power has a price and the price is breaking assets compatibility > this time. > > > Other than that I think it is a very good idea to create a second, > more progressive version of ioquake3. I'd love to contribute to that, > e.g. by adding per-pixel lighting, ambient occlusion, etc. > > > I would wonder if a fork is a good idea? This is the situation we > currently have with XReaL et al. Forks with extra goodies. But everyone > tends to go back to the base ioq3 for bugfixes and to build with. > > Would people keep a fork sync'ed up? And how would the fork distinguish > itself from other fork projects? Would the fork start breaking > compatibility or lose the ability to run on other operating systems and > platforms? > > If the base ioq3 were extended, it would be valuable because: > > 1) the code would always be up-to-date, no need to merge in fixes > 2) you don't split mindshare between the "original" and "new" (marketing > thinking, 'ere? one-stop shopping?) > 3) it would force any extensions to take into account the many platforms > that ioq3 already runs on (one of the great values for us in ioq3 over, > say, XReaL or one of those .NET ports) > 4) it would force any extensions to take into account being able to run > existing baseq3 media, i.e. XReaL supports neat things but does NOT > support older lightmapped maps so our existing content (and pretty much > all existing Q3 content) is not available for use in that engine > > If you extend ioq3 and it doesn't hurt backward compatibility, is there a > good reason to fork? If people just don't like that idea, ok, I get it. > But forking seems like it would just require more maintenance and might > end up splitting attention. > > Anything the list discusses that they don't want to include in the base > ioq3 or can't come to a consensus on, they can always publish as a patch > like is currently done, I'd think. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 18:29:35 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:29:35 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Re: [quake3-bugzilla] [Bug 3593] New: voting system is insecure In-Reply-To: <20080409185526.GA19796@morbo.webteam.net> References: <2378.64.81.110.230.1207714790.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080409185526.GA19796@morbo.webteam.net> Message-ID: <58408.63.150.173.150.1207780175.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > There is already a clientkick server command and the status command > gives the clientNums. > > -Tony Ok, that's kinda what I thought. I wonder what the "unkickable player" bug is that that guy mentions in passing? I'd think this would take care of it and if mods kick players based on the clientNums, or at least provide a user interface or set of commands to players to kick/votekick (say a pop-up menu that lists the players, you highlight the one you want to kick and select "submit vote to kick" or whatever), this isn't an issue? The "bug" would only be on the side of the mod for not putting in a way to expose that functionality to the players who want it, right? Monk. From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 18:45:34 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:45:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings XreaL In-Reply-To: <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> Message-ID: <58402.63.150.173.150.1207781134.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > I would like to clearify a few things about XreaL because many people > complain about the incompatibility with existing mods assets: I'm sorry for singling you out, but I don't know any other Q3-based engine forks that add all the bells and whistles offhand. And I fully understand why you dropped support for the old assets--you basically ripped out the guts of the rendering system and threw something far more advanced in! Same reason I understand why there aren't any .NET ports of Q3 working on anything besides Windows. Again, I don't want you to feel like I'm pickin' on XreaL (even though I am), I'm mainly lamenting that any project that adds more bells and whistles seems to break existing asset compatibility. It's the whole "have your cake and eat it too" thing going on. :) Monk. From cbunting99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 19:04:59 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:04:59 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> Message-ID: Hello, I've seen the code for Xreal and although they are great enhancements for a Q3 based engine, breaking Q3 out of the box to have a simular feel to newer games with large outdoor scenes is not simply a modification to the original rendering system. I know that a lot of people want to see something new when it comes to the renderer and if this new fork of ioq3 is meant to also serve this purpose, then you will need to realize that a new map format, if you use an existing system, is going to break 80% of quake 3's features. You almost need to remove all bsp, entity, model and whatever code is used when maps / levels are loaded and then you need to start completely from scratch. It's not easy to do and it WILL break all compatibility for any previous mods. All mods or addons that will work for your new engine will be whatever you specifically write for it. Out of all the engine changes that I've made, I've only been able to keep a simular menu system, in game statusbar hud, (based on Xreal/Evolution) and the scrolling credits. The status bar is the only code from an esiting project that I had used. Reason for my changes... I love the way Crytek / FarCry one renders outdoor scenes. So when I started looking around the web, I came across Grome, http://www.quadsoftware.com/index.php?m=section&sec=product&subsec=editor Gathering Ideas from the Grome SDK about thier uses of OpenGL along with using Nvidia's OpenGL 10 SDK and Scene Graph, I've somewhat finally been able to render outdoor scenes. My new scene manager also has support for water, fog, snow, wind, rain ect. But these changes and the use of another editor broke support for 80% of Q3's features because the models are different, not entities ect. So once I get a stable level system complete using Atlas, I'll have to base the next addition of features around a physics system. Possible Havok since it's going to have a free non-commercial version and they say it will be available in May 2008. Honestly though, Most days I feel like this was all just a waste of time because in the end, there is very little left of the original quake 3 engine. As all of the additional tools that I use are all from a 3rd party. So all that is left is the shell of Q3 and some network code that I am saving because I also have the gamespy sdk. Ghoul2 which I had used in original Q3 engine was changed to use bullet physics from the NVidia SDK, and some maps were based around Cal3d. All were earlier changes before I started trying to replicate some CryTek features and using Nvidia and Quake Software's SDK to start implementing more advanced OpenGL rendering and such. Here are some earlier shots from the beggining of the conversion. I will grab some more once I get some other instabilities out of the way. http://picasaweb.google.com/cbunting99/Q3Engine Much like Xreal, I am not longer working with ioQ3 as a base either as SDL, OpenAL were all things that were not needed for my project so it was reworked for be nothing more than a q3 version with bug fixes. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Beckebans To: quake3 at icculus.org Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings I would like to clearify a few things about XreaL because many people complain about the incompatibility with existing mods assets: XreaL was not initially based on the IOQuake 3 project at all. I merged it later with IOQuake 3 because I don't want to maintain so much platform dependent code. It is a different project with complete different project goals. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 19:57:03 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:57:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <28406b400804091345p3b7bc25bjc7032905557c1498@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> <28406b400804091345p3b7bc25bjc7032905557c1498@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58581.63.150.173.150.1207785423.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > So just to be clear, by 'just extend the base', do you mean to just work > on ioq3 itself, not fork it or anything but work on it directly? That's what I mean, yes. I am used to referring to vanilla Q2 and Q3 as "baseq2" and "baseq3" instead of, say, VQ2 and VQ3. Just a habit I can't break. So in reference to ioq3, I view the original fork/tree to be the "base" in my strange mental realm of obtuse terminology. > Or we could always just do something like this: get to a point in the ioq3 > engine where we can agree we've worked on it enough, and feature freeze > it. > Then fork it and focus everything on the new engine, while occasionally > even > patching the original ioq3 engine if need be. If we develop optimizations > and other things on the new engine which can benefit and are compatible > with > the original ioq3 engine, we can patch it. Just an idea. I think that idea makes the most sense, now that I think of it a bit more. There's only so far that some of the older hardware platforms can go. Get to a certain featureset for ioq3 and then freeze it as a legacy release, then try to take it further. Backport any important security fixes, but beyond that, leave the legacy release alone? I guess it's forking, but in the opposite direction. In the end, if Tony, Tim, Thilo, Ludwig, Zak, Jorge, etc. don't really like the idea, then it won't work. I'm not thinking anyone really wants to turn ioq3 into the type of engine that Chris or Tr3b described where pretty much everything has been ripped out and it's a whole new custom engine. I think everyone here is vested in having ioq3 work, more or less, with all the q3 stuff that's already out there. If that can be done AND support for some new media or graphic effects is possible, at the possible expense of performance or support on some older hardware platforms, I think that's the win-win situation. Not everything is about the graphics, too. Cameron from Hermitworks will hopefully submit some patches for UTF support and a supporting tool, deluxe mapping which is something one of the RQ3 mappers is hot-to-trot on even though I keep forgetting wtf it is, and skeletal models with supporting toolchain. Hey, that stuff will probably work just fine on the ol' 420 MHz SGI Octane I keep referring back to. And that helps extend the engine with modern features. I'm assuming it won't break support for existing media, too. Someone added a resolution-detection bit that uses the new SDL base in ioq3 to auto-detect available resolutions rather than have coders just hard-code in some common ones and hope for the best. Would it be possible to auto-detect certain hardware characteristics and expose functionality based on that? Have the engine scale the abilities based on what is available? Remember Tenebrae? http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net is a bit dead now (screenshots still work), but it added D3-class graphics without losing support for legacy Q1 media. Back in, what, 2003, 2004? So it might be possible. Maybe we won't get 500 fps, but most games now seem to be locking in to either 30 fps (games developed to be ported to/from consoles and TVs) or 60 fps (games assuming LCD refresh rates for either computers or game consoles/HDTVs). So while things might be slow and inefficient from a conceptual standpoint, it might not be too much of an issue overall. I don't write long emails to try and push my agenda on y'all. Well, ok, not primarily. ;) I am just trying to convince people of what I think would be a path that would benefit both the ioq3 project and the people who use ioq3, be they coders or mappers or players. And it's just my opinion. However, I think maybe a year or two ago, most of the major coders on this mailing list wouldn't even entertain the idea. So the fact that there's some discussion is heartening. We're all on this list because we like Q3. The code, the mods, the gameplay the engine provides. If the only way to add graphical goodies that are 3 generations past Doom 3 is to rip everything asunder and be left with only 20% of Q3, I don't think anyone will want to do that. But certainly, ioq3 should be able to be extended to a certain degree before it no longer becomes practical to work within the quake 3 codebase. If ioq3 reaches that point, then so be it. But getting up to there, I bet the engine can be polished up quite a bit. We won't know until it's tried, though. Monk. From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 9 20:28:03 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? Message-ID: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC Vincent = Solaris SPARC Patrick Baggett and "Mare" = SGI MIPS You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom effects? How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you about your limit for pushing pixels? If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's practical to include as features and what won't work at all. Monk. From mattst88 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 20:36:49 2008 From: mattst88 at gmail.com (Matt Turner) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:36:49 -0400 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: I've got Quake 3 running on on my 450MHz Blue/White PowerMac with a Radeon 9200 in it. It's barely playable at default settings. glxgears only gives about 1300 FPS. I don't know what the bottleneck is. I've got a DEC Alpha box I'm working on now. If I can get DRI working on it, I'll report back on that too. I think implementing native-vm-or-whatever for these different platforms would go a long way in optimizing performance. Matt On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 8:28 PM, wrote: > This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or > know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... > > tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC > Vincent = Solaris SPARC > Patrick Baggett and "Mare" = SGI MIPS > > You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving > ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? > I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance > issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe > some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom > effects? > > How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your > hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you > about your limit for pushing pixels? > > If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a > legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's > practical to include as features and what won't work at all. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincent at cojot.name Wed Apr 9 22:56:42 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:56:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, monk at rq3.com wrote: Hi Monk, > This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or > know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... > > tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC > Vincent = Solaris SPARC Please take note that although my primary platform is SPARC i'm also doing some non-reg testing on Solaris/x86 (inside a VMWare guest). Right now, I don't have a monitor on my SPARC so my testing is limited to exported displays and ioq3 server non-reg testing. > You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving > ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? > I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance > issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe > some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom > effects? Yes, it's true we might have issues. ioq2 was fully playable on SPARC with XVR-600, XVR-1000, XVR-1200 and XVR-2500 graphics but ioq3 runs in a playable manner only on XVR-1200 and 2500 (I have an XVR-1000 but it's a little slow for everyone's taste: about 40fps in 640x480 windowed). Solaris/x86 is not an issue because NVidia supports most of their cards through a downloadable driver so support for x86 is about as good as it is for Linux/x86. > How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your > hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you > about your limit for pushing pixels? I'm guessing that since the most recent OpenGL on Solaris/Sparc is OpenGL1.5, lots of newer things/eye candy might not be supported. For a (little outdated) list of OpenGL extensions on SUN go to: http://www.sun.com/software/graphics/opengl/extensions/index.xml > If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a > legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's > practical to include as features and what won't work at all. I'm biased but I admit that since there are some many Q3 projects out there with more eye-candy, I'd rather let them have the eye-candy and let ioq3 remain a stable/compatible/portable/secure Q3 version. In its time that's what ioq2 did and I thought that ioq3 would go the same way. I'm not a game coder (not even a pro coder at all) but my limited experience with more recent engines is that they tend to use features that are only available on a limited subset of platforms. When I ported TGE (The engine behind the Dynamix 'Tribes2' game, more recent that q3) to Solaris (Sparc and x86), it proved to be quite a challenge (endianness problems, 0 at 0 address problems, etc...) but when I managed to get the port finished, It ran very slow (10fps) on the best graphics SUN had at that time (XVR-1200, a $USD 4500 card). Also, it exhibited some bad graphics artifacts because use of some recent OpenGL routines by the engine didn't have software fallback functions when the OpenGL driver didn't support these routines. Since I didn't feel like backporting some of Mesa software implementations into the Torque engine, my port never left the 'Proof of concept' status (It was a personal pet project anyway). I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board so I don't get a chance to influence the course of the newer features into the engine but I'd rather let the other Q3 projects have the 'incompatible' features and come to ioq3 for security fixes/portability, etc... My 2c, -- ,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-, Vincent S. Cojot, Computer Engineering. STEP project. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Comite Micro-Informatique. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,. Linux Xview/OpenLook resources page _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~' http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._ coyote at NOSPAM4cojot.name They cannot scare me with their empty spaces Between stars - on stars where no human race is I have it in me so much nearer home To scare myself with my own desert places. - Robert Frost From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 01:37:37 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:37:37 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> <28406b400804091345p3b7bc25bjc7032905557c1498@mail.gmail.com> <58581.63.150.173.150.1207785423.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: Hello, There are many options available for a custom Quake 3 Engine. Last year, I first started posting screenshots of the first version of my rendering mods based originally on Evolution Engine. The main problem I see with trying to advance Q3 engine is this.. Most 3rd party software used in games today is windows only. This really isn't a problem if all of the developers use windows. But still, many of these 3rd party programs may need some sort of engine incorportation to access the dll's and such.. Hence, this was the very first change I ever made which caused my engine to need an external .dll for the new renderer. If you are not so worried about having a Linux / Mac version and you don't mind a windows only game or mod using Q3, you can basicly start out the same way that I did. All that is required 2 two main issues covered. Firstly, You need to convert ioQuake3 to C++. Second, you can use the very same Open Source 3D (rendering only) engine that I use. Horde3D. http://www.nextgen-engine.net/features.html Horde 3D is basicly a GLSL 2.0+ Shader only OpenGL engine. So it can render scenes just as good as many of todays high tech 3d engines. The outdoor scenes that I show, use a custom gnome exporter and load the data into the engine using xml for the world and models. But you could also use Leadwerk's Studio, FreeWorld 3D or many others. Horde3D isn't an engine which is why you can replace the renderering engine in almost any opensource game while still leaving the networking and other features in tact. I guess now, I just like C++ better. The main reason I choose a different route because games are becoming all about wide open outdoor terrain. And unless you implement some simular system, you just will not be able to achieve the desired results. I am also not a matter by nature. I can not get used to gtkradient, World Craft, Quark ect. But these new editors make it easy for almost anyone to create worlds, levels and terrain. There is also tons of editors out there for this. Most are not free but they are fairly cheap if they aren't. 3D Editors that I know about. http://freeworld3d.org/ http://www.leadwerks.com/ http://www.quadsoftware.com (Gnome) Terrain Creation. (specific for terrain mostly) http://www.pnp-terraincreator.com/ (Also has a vegitation generator) http://www.dyvision.co.uk/ale.htm http://www.dreamlands.to/ Charecter Animation. http://www.insanesoftware.de http://www.polyboost.com/ Shader Design http://www.opengl.org/sdk/tools/ShaderDesigner/ In-Game Ui Editors http://www.age3d.org/uieditor/index.asp?page0=/uieditor/container&page1=/uieditor/uieditor In-Game Scripting http://squirrel-lang.org/default.aspx Model creation and Editing. http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/ (Free) And there are many more. Those are just some of my bookmarks from the past year. My biggest reason for wanting to learn about these newer advancements with OpenGL and rendering are all because of Crytek. Thier engine simply amazes me, http://farcry.uk.ubi.com/videos.php Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings >> So just to be clear, by 'just extend the base', do you mean to just work >> on ioq3 itself, not fork it or anything but work on it directly? > > That's what I mean, yes. I am used to referring to vanilla Q2 and Q3 as > "baseq2" and "baseq3" instead of, say, VQ2 and VQ3. Just a habit I can't > break. So in reference to ioq3, I view the original fork/tree to be the > "base" in my strange mental realm of obtuse terminology. > > >> Or we could always just do something like this: get to a point in the >> ioq3 >> engine where we can agree we've worked on it enough, and feature freeze >> it. >> Then fork it and focus everything on the new engine, while occasionally >> even >> patching the original ioq3 engine if need be. If we develop optimizations >> and other things on the new engine which can benefit and are compatible >> with >> the original ioq3 engine, we can patch it. Just an idea. > > I think that idea makes the most sense, now that I think of it a bit more. > There's only so far that some of the older hardware platforms can go. > Get to a certain featureset for ioq3 and then freeze it as a legacy > release, then try to take it further. > > Backport any important security fixes, but beyond that, leave the legacy > release alone? I guess it's forking, but in the opposite direction. > > In the end, if Tony, Tim, Thilo, Ludwig, Zak, Jorge, etc. don't really > like the idea, then it won't work. I'm not thinking anyone really wants > to turn ioq3 into the type of engine that Chris or Tr3b described where > pretty much everything has been ripped out and it's a whole new custom > engine. I think everyone here is vested in having ioq3 work, more or > less, with all the q3 stuff that's already out there. > > If that can be done AND support for some new media or graphic effects is > possible, at the possible expense of performance or support on some older > hardware platforms, I think that's the win-win situation. > > Not everything is about the graphics, too. Cameron from Hermitworks will > hopefully submit some patches for UTF support and a supporting tool, > deluxe mapping which is something one of the RQ3 mappers is hot-to-trot on > even though I keep forgetting wtf it is, and skeletal models with > supporting toolchain. Hey, that stuff will probably work just fine on the > ol' 420 MHz SGI Octane I keep referring back to. And that helps extend > the engine with modern features. > > I'm assuming it won't break support for existing media, too. > > Someone added a resolution-detection bit that uses the new SDL base in > ioq3 to auto-detect available resolutions rather than have coders just > hard-code in some common ones and hope for the best. Would it be possible > to auto-detect certain hardware characteristics and expose functionality > based on that? Have the engine scale the abilities based on what is > available? > > Remember Tenebrae? http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net is a bit dead now > (screenshots still work), but it added D3-class graphics without losing > support for legacy Q1 media. Back in, what, 2003, 2004? So it might be > possible. Maybe we won't get 500 fps, but most games now seem to be > locking in to either 30 fps (games developed to be ported to/from consoles > and TVs) or 60 fps (games assuming LCD refresh rates for either computers > or game consoles/HDTVs). So while things might be slow and inefficient > from a conceptual standpoint, it might not be too much of an issue > overall. > > I don't write long emails to try and push my agenda on y'all. Well, ok, > not primarily. ;) I am just trying to convince people of what I think > would be a path that would benefit both the ioq3 project and the people > who use ioq3, be they coders or mappers or players. And it's just my > opinion. > > However, I think maybe a year or two ago, most of the major coders on this > mailing list wouldn't even entertain the idea. So the fact that there's > some discussion is heartening. > > We're all on this list because we like Q3. The code, the mods, the > gameplay the engine provides. If the only way to add graphical goodies > that are 3 generations past Doom 3 is to rip everything asunder and be > left with only 20% of Q3, I don't think anyone will want to do that. > > But certainly, ioq3 should be able to be extended to a certain degree > before it no longer becomes practical to work within the quake 3 codebase. > If ioq3 reaches that point, then so be it. But getting up to there, I > bet the engine can be polished up quite a bit. We won't know until it's > tried, though. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 02:05:56 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:05:56 -0500 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804092305p77c80adaq97cca0f8a2d142e0@mail.gmail.com> First, a little sheepish about the being considering the "SGI MIPS" interest for IOQuake3... As far as graphics go, I've got 3 main systems I am interested in: a) Indigo2 R10000 with Max IMPACT graphics + 4MB texture memory. RAM = 1GB and CPU = 195MHz b) Octane R10000 with MXE graphics (also 4MB texture memory). RAM = 1.75GB and CPU = 250MHz c) Octane2 R12000 with V8 graphics (108MB texture memory). RAM = 2.0GB and CPU = 350Mhz. Anything less than a) probably won't run it at all. Anything more than c) will definitely run it well, as is. The MXE graphics, which have 4MB of texture memory and still play IOQuake3 at decent FPS, but it isn't exactly a beautiful 60 fps all the time as you can imagine, something more along the lines of 15-25FPS at 800x600. I actually haven't tried the Indigo2 Max IMPACT yet, but it is the same as MXE just with a slightly slower bus and 17% less clock speed on graphics card -- likely to be playable but not super. The V8 works great ~40-60FPS at 1280x1024 at 30bpp, depending on scene. It's bigger brother on a Fuel (R14000 @ 600MHz, 1.5GB RAM), the V12, plays extremely well in my opinion. I've got another Octane2 with V6 for medium range testing, and it seems to work well too. As far as servers go, I run IOQuake3 ded on Challenge L with 12xR10000 @ 195MHz and it works great. Note that none of these support anything more than OpenGL 1.2 in hardware. No shaders, no multitexturing, nothing. As you can imagine, fill rate at the absurd resolutions that SGI machines love such as 1280x1024 becomes a real problem. I personally think IOQuake3 shouldn't drop/compromise support for older platforms in favor of new graphics candy. I figured IOQuake3 was focused on being a stable, mature, and bug fixed version of retail Quake3. It certainly does so in the backward compatibility. I just don't care for new graphics. Trying to retrofit new graphics onto what was designed as a fairly fixed function (at the core) graphics engine kind of seems a step in the wrong direction. Some people may enjoy seeing stuff like that done, but I'm just trying to have something to play with. Quake 3 everywhere, basically. SGI's graphics cards weren't really designed for heavy texturing, so these games are usually fill-limited -- they're optimized for things such as line drawing, NURBS eval (max evaluators is 36, compared to GL's 8), and display lists (actually compiles some display lists into GPU microcode.) Quake3 is pretty taxing on them as is. As for the future: My steps are small, but I've been working on a tiny library called libMIPS that basically is a runtime in-memory assembler. I was going to take some select instruction generation functions and add a MIPS dynamic compiler (vm_mips.c) . For example, to create a function to load r4 with the value 0xAABBCCDD, I'd write: code32[0] = MIPS_lui(4, 0xAABB); code32[1] = MIPS_ori(4, 0xCCDD); function = (func_ptr)code32; function(); /* execute these instructions */ As far as extending IOQuake3 to use things such as IPv6, SMP, I think that is a great idea. IRIX supports IPv6, and I've got a number of dual-processor machines that I wouldn't mind testing with. I've been working to optimize and trim Quake specifically for IRIX actually (dubbed unsurpisingly, irixquake), and some of the things I've been researching include running sound/sound mixing code on its own thread. It isn't fully complete right now (bit hacked, actually), but for software quake, the benefits are decent enough. This isn't really an issue for devices that do hardware/kernel mixing, or under Win32 where DirectSound automagically creates a thread for you, but when you're running on a dual processor 250MHz machine, it helps to use every ounce of CPU you have available. Also, the standard sound card in most of the SGI machines does no mixing/spatialization in hardware. It's just a DMA device, really. Vincent, I also have a 4x400Mhz Sun E420 + Expert3D (128MB) + 4GB RAM if you need some low end testing. I've compiled IOQuake3 using your makefiles (though I used Sun's C compiler, not GCC since GCC/sparc is pretty meh). My preliminary tests (aside Solaris's OpenGL bugs) show performance to be similar to SGI's old stuff. I run in a 800x600 window. If I didn't answer any questions, please let me know. Patrick Baggett On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 7:28 PM, wrote: > This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or > know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... > > tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC > Vincent = Solaris SPARC > Patrick Baggett and "Mare" = SGI MIPS > > You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving > ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? > I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance > issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe > some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom > effects? > > How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your > hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you > about your limit for pushing pixels? > > If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a > legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's > practical to include as features and what won't work at all. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 02:24:12 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:24:12 -0500 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804092324i2458c109s498aedcd150621a5@mail.gmail.com> First, a little sheepish about the being considering the "SGI MIPS" interest for IOQuake3... As far as graphics go, I've got 3 main systems I am interested in: a) Indigo2 R10000 with Max IMPACT graphics + 4MB texture memory. RAM = 1GB and CPU = 195MHz b) Octane R10000 with MXE graphics (also 4MB texture memory). RAM = 1.75GB and CPU = 250MHz c) Octane2 R12000 with V8 graphics (108MB texture memory). RAM = 2.0GB and CPU = 350Mhz. Anything less than a) probably won't run it at all. Anything more than c) will definitely run it well, as is. The MXE graphics, which have 4MB of texture memory and still play IOQuake3 at decent FPS, but it isn't exactly a beautiful 60 fps all the time as you can imagine, something more along the lines of 15-25FPS at 800x600. I actually haven't tried the Indigo2 Max IMPACT yet, but it is the same as MXE just with a slightly slower bus and 17% less clock speed on graphics card -- likely to be playable but not super. The V8 works great ~40-60FPS at 1280x1024 at 30bpp, depending on scene. It's bigger brother on a Fuel (R14000 @ 600MHz, 1.5GB RAM), the V12, plays extremely well in my opinion. I've got another Octane2 with V6 for medium range testing, and it seems to work well too. As far as servers go, I run IOQuake3 ded on Challenge L with 12xR10000 @ 195MHz and it works great. Note that none of these support anything more than OpenGL 1.2 in hardware. No shaders, no multitexturing, nothing. As you can imagine, fill rate at the absurd resolutions that SGI machines love such as 1280x1024 becomes a real problem. I personally think IOQuake3 shouldn't drop/compromise support for older platforms in favor of new graphics candy. I figured IOQuake3 was focused on being a stable, mature, and bug fixed version of retail Quake3. It certainly does so in the backward compatibility. I just don't care for new graphics. Trying to retrofit new graphics onto what was designed as a fairly fixed function (at the core) graphics engine kind of seems a step in the wrong direction. Some people may enjoy seeing stuff like that done, but I'm just trying to have something to play with. Quake 3 everywhere, basically. SGI's graphics cards weren't really designed for heavy texturing, so these games are usually fill-limited -- they're optimized for things such as line drawing, NURBS eval (max evaluators is 36, compared to GL's 8), and display lists (actually compiles some display lists into GPU microcode.) Quake3 is pretty taxing on them as is. As for the future: My steps are small, but I've been working on a tiny library called libMIPS that basically is a runtime in-memory assembler. I was going to take some select instruction generation functions and add a MIPS dynamic compiler (vm_mips.c) . For example, to create a function to load r4 with the value 0xAABBCCDD, I'd write: code32[0] = MIPS_lui(4, 0xAABB); code32[1] = MIPS_ori(4, 0xCCDD); function = (func_ptr)code32; function(); /* execute these instructions */ As far as extending IOQuake3 to use things such as IPv6, SMP, I think that is a great idea. IRIX supports IPv6, and I've got a number of dual-processor machines that I wouldn't mind testing with. I've been working to optimize and trim Quake specifically for IRIX actually (dubbed unsurpisingly, irixquake), and some of the things I've been researching include running sound/sound mixing code on its own thread. It isn't fully complete right now (bit hacked, actually), but for software quake, the benefits are decent enough. This isn't really an issue for devices that do hardware/kernel mixing, or under Win32 where DirectSound automagically creates a thread for you, but when you're running on a dual processor 250MHz machine, it helps to use every ounce of CPU you have available. Also, the standard sound card in most of the SGI machines does no mixing/spatialization in hardware. It's just a DMA device, really. Vincent, I also have a 4x400Mhz Sun E420 + Expert3D (128MB) + 4GB RAM if you need some low end testing. I've compiled IOQuake3 using your makefiles (though I used Sun's C compiler, not GCC since GCC/sparc is pretty meh). My preliminary tests (aside Solaris's OpenGL bugs) show performance to be similar to SGI's old stuff. I run in a 800x600 window. If I didn't answer any questions, please let me know. Patrick Baggett On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 7:28 PM, wrote: > This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or > know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... > > tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC > Vincent = Solaris SPARC > Patrick Baggett and "Mare" = SGI MIPS > > You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving > ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? > I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance > issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe > some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom > effects? > > How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your > hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you > about your limit for pushing pixels? > > If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a > legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's > practical to include as features and what won't work at all. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michel at tungstengraphics.com Thu Apr 10 03:26:05 2008 From: michel at tungstengraphics.com (Michel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E4nzer?=) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:26:05 +0200 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <1207812365.8750.71.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> On Wed, 2008-04-09 at 18:28 -0600, monk at rq3.com wrote: > This is mostly directed to those who have access to these platforms or > know them well enough in relation to ioq3. I'm guessing... > > tjw and Mattias Nissler = LinuxPPC > Vincent = Solaris SPARC > Patrick Baggett and "Mare" = SGI MIPS > > You guys have probably seen some of the recent discussion about improving > ioq3 in terms of graphics and other features. What are your thoughts? > I'm assuming those listed platforms aren't going to have performance > issues with things like UTF support and skeletal model support. But maybe > some issues with, say, the semi-recent framebuffer work that added bloom > effects? > > How much does ioq3/q3 chug along currently, 10 fps, 60 fps? Can your > hardware handle stuff that will make the game look more pretty, or are you > about your limit for pushing pixels? > > If the ioq3 devs decide to eventually set a cutoff for features as a > legacy release, it'll probably be you blokes who can tell everyone what's > practical to include as features and what won't work at all. The only limit right now for Linux/PPC (!= LinuxPPC! ;) is the drivers, which are improving. -- Earthling Michel D?nzer | http://tungstengraphics.com Libre software enthusiast | Debian, X and DRI developer From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Thu Apr 10 05:03:46 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:03:46 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning In-Reply-To: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804101103.46698.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Thilo Schulz wrote: > I just committed another series of changes to facilitate server scanning via > IPv6 on a local subnet. Nice! I've updated the builds at ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/lnussel/ioquake3 if any non-developer wants to test cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) From thing at groundplan.com Thu Apr 10 05:44:33 2008 From: thing at groundplan.com (thing) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:44:33 +0100 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804062048.49527.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080407150250.GB32304@morbo.webteam.net> <200804081548.09574.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> Message-ID: <47FDE181.8030407@groundplan.com> Hi, Robert Beckebans wrote: > I implemented a more modern renderer on top of Q3A that supports all > that per-pixel lighting crap, efficient VBO geometry management and even > directional light mapping with Doom 3 maps. > However power has a price and the price is breaking assets compatibility > this time. Greetings Robert. I appreciate that the work you have done, by necessity, breaks the original Id assets. Does it break the .qvm or are we talking only the maps and models - the visual side of the game? Cheers, Tim From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 06:24:48 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:24:48 -0400 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning References: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804101103.46698.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: Hello, Is this IPv6 based on the Go6 Quake 3 IPv6 Project? http://go6.net/4105/description.asp?product_id=170&category_id=276 The Quake 3 diff file for IPv6. http://www.hexago.com/docs/diff_file.diff You never can tell what patches are really new anymore. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ludwig Nussel" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 5:03 AM Subject: Re: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning > Thilo Schulz wrote: >> I just committed another series of changes to facilitate server scanning >> via >> IPv6 on a local subnet. > > Nice! I've updated the builds at > ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/lnussel/ioquake3 > if any non-developer wants to test > > cu > Ludwig > > -- > (o_ Ludwig Nussel > //\ > V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ > SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 07:38:36 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:38:36 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080408155439.GE24960@morbo.webteam.net> <2450.64.81.110.230.1207716532.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FC55C2.5020000@gmail.com> <47FC60C4.2060809@timedoctor.org> <47FC666F.3000403@gmail.com> <28406b400804090012y3b0a0058k5d08f69b141780f7@mail.gmail.com> <56178.63.150.173.150.1207766683.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FD1C0E.4090705@gmx.net> <28406b400804091345p3b7bc25bjc7032905557c1498@mail.gmail.com> <58581.63.150.173.150.1207785423.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FDFC3C.7000207@timedoctor.org> Chris Bunting wrote > Firstly, You need to convert ioQuake3 to C++. Then you put the crack in your pipe: void smokeTheRock( crackrock &rock ) { putInPipe(rock); } > Second, you can use the very same Open Source 3D (rendering only) engine > that I use. Horde3D. http://www.nextgen-engine.net/features.html ... -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 08:06:33 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:06:33 +0900 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> vincent at cojot.name wrote: > > I'm biased but I admit that since there are some many Q3 projects > out there with more eye-candy, I'd rather let them have the eye-candy > and let ioq3 remain a stable/compatible/portable/secure Q3 version. In > its time that's what ioq2 did and I thought that ioq3 would go the same > way. Stability. Compatibility. Portability. Security. Scalability. This is pretty much my current idea of how I want priorities ordered. > I'm not a game coder (not even a pro coder at all) Vincent S. Cojot, PRO SPARC Coder! I only want graphics when they can be scaled down to suit the platform. If there is one thing I learned from openarena, it is the importance of scalable graphics to keeping players. An old coworker of mine used to play OpenArena and Urban Terror every day. He liked both, but openarena ran better on his shitty laptop. Urban Terror caused it to overheat regularly (this is also why I buy macs if I can..) Eventually, he ended up putting his LAPTOP IN THE FREEZER before he played UrT... > When I ported TGE (The engine behind the Dynamix 'Tribes2' game, > more recent that q3) to Solaris (Sparc and x86), it proved to be quite a I miss Tribes 2's default CTF gameplay. > I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board Yes, you are. > so I don't get a chance to > influence the course of the newer features into the engine but I'd > rather let the other Q3 projects have the 'incompatible' features and > come to ioq3 for security fixes/portability, etc... > > My 2c, Mostly agree, though I don't want to stagnate everything for the sake of sheer lazyness with coming up with creative solutions to scalability. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 08:12:48 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:12:48 +0900 Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <52f46b6b0804092305p77c80adaq97cca0f8a2d142e0@mail.gmail.com> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <52f46b6b0804092305p77c80adaq97cca0f8a2d142e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47FE0440.8040807@timedoctor.org> Patrick Baggett wrote: > First, a little sheepish about the being considering the "SGI MIPS" > interest for IOQuake3... You get a gold star. > > I personally think IOQuake3 shouldn't drop/compromise support for older > platforms in favor of new graphics candy. I figured IOQuake3 was focused > on being a stable, mature, and bug fixed version of retail Quake3. It > certainly does so in the backward compatibility. I just don't care for > new graphics. Trying to retrofit new graphics onto what was designed as > a fairly fixed function (at the core) graphics engine kind of seems a > step in the wrong direction. Some people may enjoy seeing stuff like > that done, but I'm just trying to have something to play with. Quake 3 > everywhere, basically. SGI's graphics cards weren't really designed for > heavy texturing, so these games are usually fill-limited -- they're > optimized for things such as line drawing, NURBS eval (max evaluators is > 36, compared to GL's 8), and display lists (actually compiles some > display lists into GPU microcode.) Quake3 is pretty taxing on them as is. Completely agree though I still want a pluggable renderer. Older hardware/geriatrics like me can stick to the base graphics. Then when I want to play Monk's new all-singing-all-dancing topless version of rq3, I don't mind seeing some new graphics. Though I kinda already miss the blockyness of quake2's software renderer + aq2... Definitely not the jigglyness in the gl renderer though. That was terrible. > As far as extending IOQuake3 to use things such as IPv6, SMP, I think > that is a great idea. IRIX supports IPv6, and I've got a number of > dual-processor machines that I wouldn't mind testing with. I've been > working to optimize and trim Quake specifically for IRIX actually > (dubbed unsurpisingly, irixquake), and some of the things I've been > researching include running sound/sound mixing code on its own thread. > It isn't fully complete right now (bit hacked, actually), but for > software quake, the benefits are decent enough. This isn't really an > issue for devices that do hardware/kernel mixing, or under Win32 where > DirectSound automagically creates a thread for you, but when you're > running on a dual processor 250MHz machine, it helps to use every ounce > of CPU you have available. Also, the standard sound card in most of the > SGI machines does no mixing/spatialization in hardware. It's just a DMA > device, really. I wish I still had those indies I used to have :( Better SMP will be coming with SDL 1.3 (Ryan Gorrodododon I'm looking at you!) > Patrick Baggett > -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 09:09:41 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:09:41 +0900 Subject: [quake3] New Shit. In-Reply-To: <47FC94C5.8010801@timedoctor.org> References: <47FC94C5.8010801@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47FE1195.7080903@timedoctor.org> Note, users can now send/receive from @ioquake3.org using the same address. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From pay7n at o2.pl Thu Apr 10 09:24:44 2008 From: pay7n at o2.pl (pay7n at o2.pl) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:24:44 +0200 Subject: A3D Message-ID: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> Hi, I'm new to this mailing list :) My first question. Is A3D (3d positional audio) supported in ioquake3? If no, would it be nice to have it supported ? ID's Q3A had a supoort for A3D from the beginning, but they dropped it around version 1.17. It'd be nice to have it back :> - Mario From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 09:24:42 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:24:42 +0900 Subject: [quake3] A3D In-Reply-To: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> References: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> Message-ID: <47FE151A.2060109@timedoctor.org> pay7n at o2.pl wrote: > Hi, I'm new to this mailing list :) > > My first question. Is A3D (3d positional audio) supported in ioquake3? > If no, would it be nice to have it supported ? > > ID's Q3A had a supoort for A3D from the beginning, but they dropped it > around version 1.17. It'd be nice to have it back :> > > - > Mario Step 1) Implement A3D drivers for modern cards Step 2) Implement A3D support in openal (not bloody likely to be accepted given how creative basically owns joes openal now...) Step 3) ... Step 4) ?????????? Step 5) Steal SHUUUUUUUULZ's underpants. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Thu Apr 10 09:30:58 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:30:58 +0200 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning In-Reply-To: References: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804101103.46698.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Message-ID: <200804101531.01776.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Donnerstag, 10. April 2008, Chris Bunting wrote: > Is this IPv6 based on the Go6 Quake 3 IPv6 Project? > http://go6.net/4105/description.asp?product_id=170&category_id=276 > > The Quake 3 diff file for IPv6. > http://www.hexago.com/docs/diff_file.diff No, though I have looked at the diff file for reference in a few cases, this is my work. One reason for this is that firstly the diff file was made for a very early revision of ioquake3 where there are still two codepaths for unix and windows systems, the other one is that I wanted to modernise some network functionality a bit. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 10 09:31:57 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:31:57 +0100 Subject: A3D In-Reply-To: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> References: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> Message-ID: <47FE16CD.8040803@ngus.net> pay7n at o2.pl wrote: > My first question. Is A3D (3d positional audio) supported in ioquake3? > If no, would it be nice to have it supported ? Positional audio is supported via OpenAL, though this doesn't do the HRTF stuff. From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 09:34:10 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:34:10 +0900 Subject: [quake3] IPv6 multicast scanning In-Reply-To: <200804101531.01776.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804091640.33417.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804101103.46698.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <200804101531.01776.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <47FE1752.3010802@timedoctor.org> Thilo Schulz wrote: > No, though I have looked at the diff file for reference in a few cases, this > is my work. One reason for this is that firstly the diff file was made for a > very early revision of ioquake3 where there are still two codepaths for unix > and windows systems, So glad we did get rid of that. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From pay7n at o2.pl Thu Apr 10 10:11:49 2008 From: pay7n at o2.pl (pay7n at o2.pl) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:11:49 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: A3D In-Reply-To: <47FE16CD.8040803@ngus.net> References: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> <47FE16CD.8040803@ngus.net> Message-ID: <47FE2025.4020508@o2.pl> Tim Angus pisze: > Positional audio is supported via OpenAL, though this doesn't do the > HRTF stuff. Yes that's the point. A3D is (actually was, before Aureal was bought by Creative) a superior sound system. It features advanced HRTF's, sound reflecting, occluding, wavetracing and so on, all based on 3D geometry near the sound source. As I said, Id's Q3A had support for it. In Q3A retail version and all later patched versions up to 1.17, you can enable A3D system by entering in console `/s_enable_a3d`. Quake3 has many sound setting for you to change via console (apart from the really basic ones, like `s_volume` or `s_khz`) all of them are related to A3D. Enabling A3D in your Q3A doesn't necessarily mean it will work. Actually, for most users it won't, because in order to get A3D you have to do one of the following: - get a Vortex/Vortex2 based sound card or - get `A3D Support Files - Version 3.12` "A3D Support Files: They are required for playing games that have been written to take advantage of A3D 3.0. They will also support games written for A3D 1.x or A3D 2.0." It means that if you don't have a Vortex soundboard to take advantage of hardware A3D support, you can take still use those DLL's and get A3D running via software processing. And although you won't get wavetracing (only Vortex2 chip does it), most of the effect are still there, and you surely will hear the difference. To implementing (re-implement?) A3D in ioq3 you only need an A3D SDK. I am trying to test-drive it with MFC now, but there are some problems compiling in MSVS 2008. Any help in this task would be appreciated :) From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 10 10:31:33 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:31:33 +0100 Subject: A3D In-Reply-To: <47FE2025.4020508@o2.pl> References: <47FE151C.7040205@o2.pl> <47FE16CD.8040803@ngus.net> <47FE2025.4020508@o2.pl> Message-ID: <47FE24C5.7080406@ngus.net> pay7n at o2.pl wrote: > To implementing (re-implement?) A3D in ioq3 you only need an A3D SDK. I > am trying to test-drive it with MFC now, but there are some problems > compiling in MSVS 2008. Any help in this task would be appreciated :) A3D is tied to Windows I think, and basically defunct now, AIUI. Besides, I think this is the wrong approach to the problem to be honest. OpenAL is basically an abstraction between the game world (ioq3 client) and the audio rendering (OpenAL). In other words it's OpenAL that's reponsible for deciding at what volume sounds play on each speaker, or whether to render to file or whatever. In the same way it is OpenAL that is responsible for implementing HRTF audio rendering, so if this is a feature you're after it would be better to concentrate your efforts on getting this functionality integrated into your favourite OpenAL implementation as opposed to adding another audio code path to ioq3. It might be that some OpenAL implementations already do this. I wouldn't be surprised if Creative's offering already did, for example. From monk at rq3.com Thu Apr 10 15:48:24 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:48:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> >> I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board > > Yes, you are. Oh geez, you let SPARC users vote?!? ;) >> First, a little sheepish about the being considering the "SGI MIPS" >> interest for IOQuake3... > >You get a gold star. I like how he then lists, in great detail, some (not even all!) of the SGI hardware he uses... I wonder whatever happened to that SGI engineer who ported Q2 and part of Q3 to Irix. Richard Hess or someone like that. Then he disappeared... Man, where's the guy working to port ioq3 to the BeBox and BeOS R5?!? Jens Kalmark I think he was... Anyway, so the main limitations will be with the OpenGL support for SPARC and MIPS and the video hardware itself? Linux/PPC (see what I did there? happy now?!? ;) seems to be only limited by drivers, so that's probably not worth worrying about too much. If I read you guys correctly, things like UTF support and skeletal model support won't be an issue. It's mainly the more intense graphics that would be a problem. So if ioq3 were extended with some type of selectable/pluginable renderer, the "legacy" renderer would work fine on the old hardware (as fine as it does now, I guess) and those with newer hardware could elect to use a more modern renderer, if they wanted to. Extend, rather than replace. Lord knows I don't think porting ioq3 to c++ and shoving Horde3D into the engine is what anyone wants to do. That seems more like a programming investigation into rendering techniques rather than an attempt to modernize some aspects of an engine. All that talk about recreating everything and going Windows only... meh. Chris, I think the content creation toolchain isn't a huge issue, platform-wise. Most artists are going to need plugins/exporters for their current platform of choice, be it Windows, MacOS, or Linux. Whatever fits with their current workflow. Just because ioq3 doesn't work with AmigaOS 4 doesn't mean that a modeler creating content on that platform can't create content that works with ioq3. I appreciate the work and research you've done into 3D rendering tech and tools, but I don't know if that stuff is directly relevent to ioq3. Most Q3 content creators that I know of (rq3, urt, nsq3, wq3, etc.) create stuff in separate tools like gtkradiant for mapping and commercial products like lightwave, maya, and 3dmax for models and animation. Integrating the tools or hooking them into the engine doesn't seem to be necessary. I also don't know that games are all going to wide-open outdoor terrain and it's therefore imperative that ioq3 rush to support it. Certainly, if there's a need for that for someone looking for a game engine, they have choices other than ioq3. They could look to the Tribes engine, for instance. I don't think anyone here wants to rip out the ioq3 renderer and make it a GLSL 2.0+ only engine. Extend, rather than replace. Maybe the SGI guys can't run whatever new renderer gets added to ioq3, but they should still be able to fallback to the existing, working renderer. My thoughts, at least. Monk. From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 16:34:47 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:34:47 -0400 Subject: Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: Hello, The talks about a plugin rendering system is the main reason why I've mentioned a C++ port. If supporting varied plugin renderers were possible with C, we would already have an OpenGL base renderer, OpenGL supporting shader 2.0/3.0 and then a DX 8/9/10 renderers.. But it's not worth the trouble for a C based engine. If you are really familier with the Q3 codebase, it takes maybe 60 minutes to rip out all of the bot/ai code. It's takes less than 30 minutes to remove the small bits of network code. Network code is easlily replaced with Rakknet or OpenTNL (GarageGames). But then, with the network code and bot code removed, the rest of the code is based around OpenGL and all of the hard coding. Most of the Q3 engine is full of opengl calls. The reason I mentioned Hord3e is because it's extremely small, offers all of the same rendering power and more if you want to use the built in pipelines and such. There is also a linux build of Horde3D and also and SDL conversion for linux. There are a lot of options but a plugin rendering system with c instead of C++ / Classes / Real plugin support is just going to make it hard. For every good idea there is a big drawback it would seem. There are a few commercial engines I like but they just cost way to much for a personal project of sorts. It seems there are a lot of people with older systems. So I don't know what type of features they can actually support. If I was going to start over again, I would replicate only a couple of Doom3 style features mainly based around a shader system as this would help give Q3 the rendering results simular to COD4. Xreal and Evolution both have a simular shader implementaion. But the Quake 2 engine, A branch of Quake 2 Evolved called OverDose has a small, clean Doom 3 style shader system, http://q2e.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/q2e/OverDose/code/OverDose/renderer/r_shader.cpp?revision=228&view=markup Some sort of shader support is really the only thing that Ioq3 seems to be missing. You can do a lot with shaders as there is code for just about everything if your OS supports it. Otherwise, you just default back to the base renderer if your card/driver doesn't support it's features just like stock q3 does. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? >>> I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board >> >> Yes, you are. > > Oh geez, you let SPARC users vote?!? ;) From trebor_7 at gmx.net Thu Apr 10 17:45:00 2008 From: trebor_7 at gmx.net (Robert Beckebans) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:45:00 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. In-Reply-To: References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FE8A5C.2070304@gmx.net> Well I think adding C++ to the Q3A architecture just f**** up everything. That is what I figured when I rewrote Quake2 into C++ before I began with the Q3A source. Or just have a look at Overdose. It is way more easy to break things completely instead of extending it. The team got a C++ coder who thought rewriting in C++ is fancy and Overdose is more broken than before. (I think it was a good choice not giving him access to the XreaL SVN) First of all you need a renderer for your type of game. I decided to keep everything designed for indoor rendering in XreaL like in Q3A. When you replace the renderer to support terrain rendering like in FarCry or Crysis then please don't provide basic level editing support with some closed-source world editing tools that break everything. You need to care about the network code, (bot code) and first of all collision code as well. Well all together I think it is pretty pointless to write a cool terrain renderer on top of Q3A if you break everything that your engine is not much more usable than a basic map viewer because collision detection and entity interactions are completely messed up. On the other hand it would be cool to have a map format that does not require pre-processing like BSP space-partitioning. I think it is not a problem to add Unreal Tournament 3 graphics to the Q3A engine with a complete engine overhaul like I did. The key problem is really Q3A shaders language which was a very early attempt for material scripting in games at all. I think it is not possible to support it completely with a modern renderer design. However it is not a problem to write a powerful renderer without C++. I think even the an id Tech 5 style renderer with virtualized textures can be implemented without too much trouble in pure C. The problem are the tools to create the content that really need to fit to the engine with all required aspects. Chris do you have a demo of your Nvidia Scenegraph based renderer? I would like to try it. Chris Bunting schrieb: > Hello, > > The talks about a plugin rendering system is the main reason why I've > mentioned a C++ port. If supporting varied plugin renderers were > possible with C, we would already have an OpenGL base renderer, OpenGL > supporting shader 2.0/3.0 and then a DX 8/9/10 renderers.. But it's > not worth the trouble for a C based engine. > > If you are really familier with the Q3 codebase, it takes maybe 60 > minutes to rip out all of the bot/ai code. It's takes less than 30 > minutes to remove the small bits of network code. Network code is > easlily replaced with Rakknet or OpenTNL (GarageGames). But then, with > the network code and bot code removed, the rest of the code is based > around OpenGL and all of the hard coding. Most of the Q3 engine is > full of opengl calls. The reason I mentioned Hord3e is because it's > extremely small, offers all of the same rendering power and more if > you want to use the built in pipelines and such. There is also a linux > build of Horde3D and also and SDL conversion for linux. > > There are a lot of options but a plugin rendering system with c > instead of C++ / Classes / Real plugin support is just going to make > it hard. For every good idea there is a big drawback it would seem. > There are a few commercial engines I like but they just cost way to > much for a personal project of sorts. > > It seems there are a lot of people with older systems. So I don't know > what type of features they can actually support. If I was going to > start over again, I would replicate only a couple of Doom3 style > features mainly based around a shader system as this would help give > Q3 the rendering results simular to COD4. Xreal and Evolution both > have a simular shader implementaion. But the Quake 2 engine, A branch > of Quake 2 Evolved called OverDose has a small, clean Doom 3 style > shader system, > http://q2e.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/q2e/OverDose/code/OverDose/renderer/r_shader.cpp?revision=228&view=markup > > > Some sort of shader support is really the only thing that Ioq3 seems > to be missing. You can do a lot with shaders as there is code for just > about everything if your OS supports it. Otherwise, you just default > back to the base renderer if your card/driver doesn't support it's > features just like stock q3 does. > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:48 PM > Subject: Re: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? > > >>>> I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board >>> >>> Yes, you are. >> >> Oh geez, you let SPARC users vote?!? ;) > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 18:38:06 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:38:06 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <47FE96CE.7060406@timedoctor.org> Chris Bunting wrote: > Hello, > > The talks about a plugin rendering system is the main reason why I've > mentioned a C++ port. No. Would you like to keep bringing it up? > If you are really familier with the Q3 codebase, it takes maybe 60 > minutes to rip out all of the bot/ai code. No. > It's takes less than 30 > minutes to remove the small bits of network code. Network code is > easlily replaced with Rakknet or OpenTNL (GarageGames). No. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 18:57:50 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:57:50 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE96CE.7060406@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: Hello, So all of your replies include the word NO or Can't Do it or it Can't be done.. So Zach, What exactly is your philosophy? If you can't copy and paste it anymore, it can't be done? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zachary Slater" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? > Chris Bunting wrote: >> Hello, >> >> The talks about a plugin rendering system is the main reason why I've >> mentioned a C++ port. > > No. Would you like to keep bringing it up? > > >> If you are really familier with the Q3 codebase, it takes maybe 60 >> minutes to rip out all of the bot/ai code. > > No. > >> It's takes less than 30 minutes to remove the small bits of network code. >> Network code is easlily replaced with Rakknet or OpenTNL (GarageGames). > > No. > -- > - Zachary J. Slater > zakk at timedoctor.org > zacharyslater at gmail.com > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From zakk at timedoctor.org Thu Apr 10 19:05:30 2008 From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:05:30 +0900 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE96CE.7060406@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <47FE9D3A.5010503@timedoctor.org> Chris Bunting wrote: > Hello, > > So all of your replies include the word NO or Can't Do it or it Can't be > done.. > > So Zach, What exactly is your philosophy? If you can't copy and paste it > anymore, it can't be done? > > Chris This project is /NOT/ moving to Managed C++ direct super hyper .NET and ripping out all the guts of the game. Your trolling is more likely to get you banned from this mailing list than your suggestions being taken seriously. -- - Zachary J. Slater zakk at timedoctor.org zacharyslater at gmail.com From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 19:20:13 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Chris Bunting) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:20:13 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE96CE.7060406@timedoctor.org> <47FE9D3A.5010503@timedoctor.org> Message-ID: <300A4EF25D214AC2B7CF61032DCE2057@chrispc> Well, from what I recall, the talks were about a Fork of the engine. Everyone is going to have different views or ideas. You stick with Ioquake 3 as it is. That is your preference.. But why fault people for wanting to go futher with it? > This project is /NOT/ moving This project hasn't moved in 6 years Dude.. There are still bugs in svn from 2 years ago. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zachary Slater" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? > Chris Bunting wrote: >> Hello, >> >> So all of your replies include the word NO or Can't Do it or it Can't be >> done.. >> >> So Zach, What exactly is your philosophy? If you can't copy and paste it >> anymore, it can't be done? >> >> Chris > > This project is /NOT/ moving to Managed C++ direct super hyper .NET and > ripping out all the guts of the game. > > Your trolling is more likely to get you banned from this mailing list than > your suggestions being taken seriously. > -- > - Zachary J. Slater > zakk at timedoctor.org > zacharyslater at gmail.com > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From monk at rq3.com Thu Apr 10 20:06:54 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:06:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. Was Re: How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <300A4EF25D214AC2B7CF61032DCE2057@chrispc> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE96CE.7060406@timedoctor.org> <47FE9D3A.5010503@timedoctor.org> <300A4EF25D214AC2B7CF61032DCE2057@chrispc> Message-ID: <57729.63.150.173.150.1207872414.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Before this gets too messy, I think Chris is just really enthusiastic about going a direction with ioq3 that probably most of the other people on this list aren't interested in going. If they were interested in it, they'd already be contributing to one of the other C++ or managed code ports of q3 that are on the 'net. The discussion is about how we can and if we should build in improvements into ioq3. I think for a majority of the list there is agreement with Zakk's stated goals of: "Stability. Compatibility. Portability. Security. Scalability. This is pretty much my current idea of how I want priorities ordered." There's nothing WRONG with your ideas, Chris, it's just that most people don't want to go that route. Obviously many OTHER people do--you linked to some q3 source projects that are doing what you're recommending. But it's just not the people involved with ioq3 who want to go that route. Basically, you've already followed your own advice. If anyone wants to contribute to your Q3 fork, I'm sure they'll contact ya. But you should probably accept that ioq3 developers are more conservative and want to take an incremental approach to adding features that will work with a majority of the platforms they currently support. As for the bugs in svn from 2+ years ago, I dunno. Looking at some of them like ipv6 support, they aren't really showstopper bugs. Most of the ones that are still an issue are there because it's hard to get someone to find the time to test on an esoteric platform. I mean, for the first 10 out of 47 "bugs" we have: 2355 - ipv6, enhancement, work scrapped and restarted 2465 - powerpc bytecode compiler issue, fixed? 2523 - powerpc roq video issue 2571 - com_zoneMegs partial fix and discussion 2578 - compiler flag makes ioq3 stutter, workaround available 2632 - menus displaying incorrectly, maybe fixed 2681 - win64 patch, author never followed up 2715 - osx app bundle issue, fixed? 2744 - credits screen aspect ratio wrong for widescreen 2748 - monitor going to powersave resets q3 brightness There's no showstoppers and several are probably already fixed but the original reporter hasn't updated the entry. I know it was a bit of a dig about how slow and ponderous progress is with ioq3, but really when you look at it, ioq3 should be commended for fixing a ton of stuff and adding a bunch of new features that work on all the platforms it supports. And even though those features aren't flashy, they still improve the overall experience. Yes, *I* would love some Doom 3-esque rendering, but automatic detection of available resolutions and their aspect ratios is extremely useful and user-friendly. Maybe not flashy, but it's a wonderful enhancement. Maybe at some point people will want to rewrite ioq3 into some managed language or OO language (Ada? Smalltalk?!?), but right now it's not in the cards. A year or two ago I tried to pitch the value of ioq3 "enhancements" but it wasn't well-received. But hey, that's life. I backed off and waited and perhaps now is a better time to discuss possible enhancements. Perhaps your time will come when most of the people on the ioq3 dev list will be receptive to your ideas. I don't think this is that time, though. The best course is to be graceful and help with whatever you can. You can only push your own agenda so much before people start reacting poorly to your ideas. We know what you think is the best route to take; we just don't agree. No malice, just polite disagreement, is all. Further pushing is, at this point, not going to be productive. I hope that's a more tactful way of addressing the realities of the situation before things get unnecessarily heated. BTW, Zakk = one of them blokes who is "in charge". Me = someone who provides no practical contribution to the ioq3 project besides lengthy emails. I'm not speaking from any position of authority, I'm just trying to help facilitate the discussion, is all. Monk. From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 04:16:36 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:16:36 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Rendering System.. In-Reply-To: <47FE8A5C.2070304@gmx.net> References: <58728.63.150.173.150.1207787283.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE02C9.6080907@timedoctor.org> <56509.63.150.173.150.1207856904.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <47FE8A5C.2070304@gmx.net> Message-ID: <135ebb010804110116j393c5e9fkb39c1e8e3bff05be@mail.gmail.com> > On the other hand it would be cool to have a map format that does not require pre-processing like BSP space-partitioning. Hmm, I think that'd be something for me, because in the raytracing patch we're already building a very optimized acceleration structure similar to the BSP in a few seconds at load time. It's a kd-tree: splitting planes are axis aligned, which makes it a special form of a BSP. In radiant there's the option to build a low-quality bsp for "map-debugging". Does anyone know if that sets a flag in the map header we could react to and build a BSP at runtime? Any other ideas? Stephan 2008/4/10, Robert Beckebans : > > Well I think adding C++ to the Q3A architecture just f**** up everything. > > That is what I figured when I rewrote Quake2 into C++ before I began with > the Q3A source. Or just have a look at Overdose. It is way more easy to > break things completely instead of extending it. The team got a C++ coder > who thought rewriting in C++ is fancy and Overdose is more broken than > before. (I think it was a good choice not giving him access to the XreaL > SVN) > > First of all you need a renderer for your type of game. I decided to keep > everything designed for indoor rendering in XreaL like in Q3A. > When you replace the renderer to support terrain rendering like in FarCry > or Crysis then please don't provide basic level editing support with some > closed-source world editing tools that break everything. You need to care > about the network code, (bot code) and first of all collision code as well. > Well all together I think it is pretty pointless to write a cool terrain > renderer on top of Q3A if you break everything that your engine is not much > more usable than a basic map viewer because collision detection and entity > interactions are completely messed up. > > On the other hand it would be cool to have a map format that does not > require pre-processing like BSP space-partitioning. > > I think it is not a problem to add Unreal Tournament 3 graphics to the Q3A > engine with a complete engine overhaul like I did. > The key problem is really Q3A shaders language which was a very early > attempt for material scripting in games at all. I think it is not possible > to support it completely with a modern renderer design. However it is not a > problem to write a powerful renderer without C++. > > I think even the an id Tech 5 style renderer with virtualized textures can > be implemented without too much trouble in pure C. > The problem are the tools to create the content that really need to fit to > the engine with all required aspects. > > Chris do you have a demo of your Nvidia Scenegraph based renderer? I would > like to try it. > > Chris Bunting schrieb: > > > Hello, > > > > The talks about a plugin rendering system is the main reason why I've > > mentioned a C++ port. If supporting varied plugin renderers were possible > > with C, we would already have an OpenGL base renderer, OpenGL supporting > > shader 2.0/3.0 and then a DX 8/9/10 renderers.. But it's not worth the > > trouble for a C based engine. > > > > If you are really familier with the Q3 codebase, it takes maybe 60 > > minutes to rip out all of the bot/ai code. It's takes less than 30 minutes > > to remove the small bits of network code. Network code is easlily replaced > > with Rakknet or OpenTNL (GarageGames). But then, with the network code and > > bot code removed, the rest of the code is based around OpenGL and all of the > > hard coding. Most of the Q3 engine is full of opengl calls. The reason I > > mentioned Hord3e is because it's extremely small, offers all of the same > > rendering power and more if you want to use the built in pipelines and such. > > There is also a linux build of Horde3D and also and SDL conversion for > > linux. > > > > There are a lot of options but a plugin rendering system with c instead > > of C++ / Classes / Real plugin support is just going to make it hard. For > > every good idea there is a big drawback it would seem. There are a few > > commercial engines I like but they just cost way to much for a personal > > project of sorts. > > > > It seems there are a lot of people with older systems. So I don't know > > what type of features they can actually support. If I was going to start > > over again, I would replicate only a couple of Doom3 style features mainly > > based around a shader system as this would help give Q3 the rendering > > results simular to COD4. Xreal and Evolution both have a simular shader > > implementaion. But the Quake 2 engine, A branch of Quake 2 Evolved called > > OverDose has a small, clean Doom 3 style shader system, > > http://q2e.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/q2e/OverDose/code/OverDose/renderer/r_shader.cpp?revision=228&view=markup > > > > Some sort of shader support is really the only thing that Ioq3 seems to > > be missing. You can do a lot with shaders as there is code for just about > > everything if your OS supports it. Otherwise, you just default back to the > > base renderer if your card/driver doesn't support it's features just like > > stock q3 does. > > > > Chris > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? > > > > > > I'm not on the ioq3 voting review board > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you are. > > > > > > > > > > Oh geez, you let SPARC users vote?!? ;) > > > > > > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From defsyn at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 13:28:53 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:28:53 -0400 Subject: Windows MingW build SVN_1314 Message-ID: The latest SVN builds now: 1311 wouldn't. But now ioquake3.x86.exe has a dependency problem with WS2_32.DLL Error Message: The procedure entry point freeaddrinfo could not be located in the dynamic link library WS2_32.DLL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 12 13:43:33 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:43:33 +0200 Subject: IPv6 support finished. Message-ID: <200804121943.41700.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hello, I have now finished the last two parts required in my quest for ipv6 support, so we're ready to announce that support officially. With finished I mean: 1. Connecting and playing to a server via ipv6 works. 2. Scanning for ipv6 servers on the local subnet works, even for non-ipv6 aware mods works (though non-ipv6 aware mods will report ipv6 servers as IPX instead of UPD6) 3. Master server querying for ipv6 servers is now possible. There is no master server written yet to support it. Maybe someone can hit the dpmaster developer to do this. The relevant sections in ioquake3 are: code/client/cl_main.c: CL_ServersResponsePacket The delimiter token to indicate an ipv6 address was changed to / instead of \ 4. The way master server querying works has been modified. Instead of the mplayer querying (which does not seem to be used anywhere anymore), I have made it such that the client can query all 5 different master servers given in the 5 sv_master* cvars. I also modified the game code to make cycling possible. Don't worry, this should not break compatibility at all, I tested it with vanilla quake3 and team arena. 5. I added a few new engine-side banning functions so that ipv6 users cannot evade bans on old mods that only support v4 (engine side because this is the only way to properly do this in this case for old mods). This newer banning system should also be much more robust than the one delivered with the gamecode. The new v6 options as well as new banning functions are documented in the README. Although I tested all additions I made more or less thoroughly and I am confident that the code I added is pretty solid, feel free to give all the new functionality I added a try and don't hesitate to report in with bugs. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sat Apr 12 14:57:10 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:57:10 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Windows MingW build SVN_1314 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200804122057.12716.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Samstag, 12. April 2008, Henry Garcia wrote: > The latest SVN builds now: 1311 wouldn't. > > But now ioquake3.x86.exe has a dependency problem with WS2_32.DLL > > Error Message: The procedure entry point freeaddrinfo could not be located > in the dynamic link library WS2_32.DLL The function freeaddrinfo() has been introduced before 1311 and it worked on other mingw installations. Try upgrading to a more recent version of MinGW. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From defsyn at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 13:26:50 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:26:50 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Windows MingW build SVN_1314 In-Reply-To: <200804122057.12716.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804122057.12716.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Thilo Schulz wrote: > > The function freeaddrinfo() has been introduced before 1311 and it worked > on > other mingw installations. Try upgrading to a more recent version of > MinGW. > > Okay. That worked. Using the testing version of MingW:1.0.11 and the udpated Gcc 4.2.1-sjlj off of sourceforge Thanks > -- > Thilo Schulz > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benikaj at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 12:09:44 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:09:44 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> Message-ID: <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> Stephan Reiter wrote: >> So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be >> specific for your game, just using the standard qvm compiler and the >> old q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for disassembly. > > I fail to see the reason why this is a problem for you. If you're > distributing a mod based on the code that was released under the GPL, > you have to make the code accessible anyway. So there isn't even a need > for a disassembler with regard to your code ... > > Or am I wrong on that? > Stephan > Am I mistaken to believe that if one creates a mod from scratch. Then distributes the mod with only a link or a runtime download/installer to the ioq3 engine. That the mod from scratch would remain licensed as the author interned even if the license was non GPL??? -- "I do not mean for a moment that we ought not to think, and think hard, about improvements in our social and economic system. What I do mean is that all that thinking will be mere moonshine unless we realize that nothing but the courage and unselfishness of individuals is ever going to make any system work properly." -- C. S. Lewis From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 13:03:30 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:03:30 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> I think you would have to prove that you did not use any GPL'd code for that undertaking. Something that is pretty much impossible, since you'd at least be using the engine's public headers to get access to its services, i.e. g_public, cg_public, etc. ... Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony J. Benik" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Greetings > Stephan Reiter wrote: >>> So really, unless you are going to rework the vm in ioquake3 to be >>> specific for your game, just using the standard qvm compiler and the old >>> q3 code will leave your mod or game freely open for disassembly. >> >> I fail to see the reason why this is a problem for you. If you're >> distributing a mod based on the code that was released under the GPL, you >> have to make the code accessible anyway. So there isn't even a need for a >> disassembler with regard to your code ... >> >> Or am I wrong on that? >> Stephan >> > Am I mistaken to believe that if one creates a mod from scratch. Then > distributes the mod with only a link or a runtime download/installer to > the ioq3 engine. That the mod from scratch would remain licensed as the > author interned even if the license was non GPL??? > > -- > "I do not mean for a moment that we ought not to think, and think hard, > about improvements in our social and economic system. What I do mean is > that all that thinking will be mere moonshine unless we realize that > nothing but the courage and unselfishness of individuals is ever going to > make any system work properly." -- C. S. Lewis > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From monk at rq3.com Tue Apr 15 13:30:48 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804061209.18711.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <1598.83.67.66.184.1207483599.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <200804061438.04814.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> Message-ID: <56316.63.150.173.150.1208280648.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> In a situation like that, it would only apply if the mod would only run on ioq3. i.e. if the mod DEPENDED on ioq3 to function. If the mod functioned just as fine with either the original quake 3 or with ioq3, then it wouldn't need to be forced under a GPL license. There have been some grumblings about whether or not you can use anything from the old q3 mod sdk, too, because that apparently wasn't released under the GPL and mods that use that code are technically incompatible with GPL'ed things. Or something to that effect. I used to delve into this junk a few years ago and had some clarification (though not a whole lot) from id on some GPL-related questions (like the bot files). It's been a while since I've gone section by section through the GPL. That's not a bad thing, either. Monk. > I think you would have to prove that you did not use any GPL'd code for > that > undertaking. Something that is pretty much impossible, since you'd at > least > be using the engine's public headers to get access to its services, i.e. > g_public, cg_public, etc. ... > > Stephan From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 15 14:03:01 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:03:01 +0200 Subject: nsis file for windows installer in svn Message-ID: <200804152003.02569.ludwig.nussel@suse.de> Hi, I've added the nsis file I use for the Windows installer to svn: http://svn.icculus.org/*checkout*/quake3/trunk/misc/nsis/ioquake3.nsi.in The installer obviously needs some work to make it cool. An actual q3 icon instead of that nsis thing would be a good start for example :-) Anyone enthusiastic about fixing that? Send patches here. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ From cbunting99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 20:07:16 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:07:16 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <56316.63.150.173.150.1208280648.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> <56316.63.150.173.150.1208280648.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804151707y773c572eh3afba486b7cf0e8e@mail.gmail.com> Mods developed for the Q3 engine used to be one thing. No engine licensing applied for anyone creating even a total conversion mod. But I was told years ago when I was interested in licensing the Q3 engine for a project a few friends and I were doing, we asked a bunch of questions about what actually fell under the "Need a license terms" and I was originally told that any game being offered as a whole built on top of the q3 engine or any deriv still required a license. It's also stated here, http://www.idsoftware.com/business/technology/techlicense.php But what I was told would mean that Tremulous, World of Padman, Urban Terror and so on would still need a valid Q3 Engine License. When you think about it, those are all games built on top of the Quake 3 engine or ioQuake3 but it is still the Q3 engine. I'm guessing ID doesn't much care because they don't outright make money off of them. But still, years ago, any game being released whether free or not still required a license. But as I mentioned, I guess ID has a different take now of free games as opposed to what their Q3 Engine Licensing states. Just my thoughts on this, Chris On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > In a situation like that, it would only apply if the mod would only run on > ioq3. i.e. if the mod DEPENDED on ioq3 to function. If the mod > functioned just as fine with either the original quake 3 or with ioq3, > then it wouldn't need to be forced under a GPL license. > > There have been some grumblings about whether or not you can use anything > from the old q3 mod sdk, too, because that apparently wasn't released > under the GPL and mods that use that code are technically incompatible > with GPL'ed things. Or something to that effect. > > I used to delve into this junk a few years ago and had some clarification > (though not a whole lot) from id on some GPL-related questions (like the > bot files). It's been a while since I've gone section by section through > the GPL. That's not a bad thing, either. > > Monk. > > > I think you would have to prove that you did not use any GPL'd code for > > that > > undertaking. Something that is pretty much impossible, since you'd at > > least > > be using the engine's public headers to get access to its services, i.e. > > g_public, cg_public, etc. ... > > > > Stephan > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monk at rq3.com Tue Apr 15 20:35:46 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804151707y773c572eh3afba486b7cf0e8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <47F8D13B.8020609@timedoctor.org> <1089.83.67.66.184.1207497522.squirrel@cloud0.lchost.co.uk> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> <56316.63.150.173.150.1208280648.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804151707y773c572eh3afba486b7cf0e8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > told that any game being offered as a whole built on top of > the q3 engine or any deriv still required a license. It's also stated > here, > http://www.idsoftware.com/business/technology/techlicense.php Actually, read the page a bit more closely. It's under the QUAKE section that id explains how you can use the GPL'ed engines they release. The Q3 section (and Q2) doesn't really cover it so I can see how you'd get the wrong impression by only looking at the Q3 section(s). Some relevent quotes so you don't have to hunt too much: "If, for example, you have an amateur team that is long on talent but short on cash and needs a proven engine to develop a game that can be distributed commercially, it doesn?t get much better than 'Free.' If you abide by the GPL terms, then the QUAKE technology is truly just a gift from id. And, unlike some 'bargain' licensors, we don?t impose ANY restrictions on your distribution channel: retail, Internet, shareware, magazine coverdisk ? whatever YOU choose." "For teams that don?t want to operate under the GPL, we?re now offering a "non-GPL" QUAKE engine license for a flat fee of $10,000 per title [3] with no backend royalty whatsoever. This means that you can grab the source and tools from our FTP site and sign a separate agreement with us, allowing you to keep your source modifications confidential (if you like)." Replace "QUAKE" with "QUAKE 3 ARENA" and it's the same deal. Monk. From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 01:00:31 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:00:31 -0700 Subject: IPv6 on SGI IRIX/MIPS Message-ID: <480587EF.3030802@gmail.com> Hey guys, I just built r1321 on IRIX, and I need to make one tiny change similar to the one made for Solaris. It turns out that doesn't exist (and apparently isn't needed to compile successfully). I believe this was added when IPv6 support was added. Attached is the patch. I have yet to test IPv6 functionality, but I guess I can try that soon. Patrick Baggett -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ip6.patch URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 20:40:21 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:40:21 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <409E3D337E994D2E8AD3BCDE264344CB@chrispc> <56604.63.150.173.150.1207612372.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <5E58DB8253CB42C8B3454C179B447ECB@chrispc> <9921E9E550A4471A961273033A8A4800@Redmond> <4804D348.9010200@gmail.com> <77F1451A64FA494FA6654937B0512A25@Redmond> <56316.63.150.173.150.1208280648.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804151707y773c572eh3afba486b7cf0e8e@mail.gmail.com> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> Hello, You are correct. *If you abide by the GPL terms, *is the part I was talking about. I was under the assumption that abiding by the GPL meant that you had to offer all of your code modifications to the public for free in exchange for using the engine for free. As an example, Urban Terror only offers the base Ioquake3 code in SVN to the public. But that SVN code doesn't contain any of thier code modifications. They don't release their modified code back to the public nor does any of the other mods. NSCO and a few others, as listed here, http://synapse.vgfort.com/quake3.php are the only ones to my knowlegde that had actually followed the GPL. Maybe things have changed. But as I mentioned, I was told that any Closed Source game / Mod distributed on Q3 source code required some type of licensing. *EG from your reply:* "For teams that don't want to operate under the GPL, we're now offering a "non-GPL" QUAKE engine license for a flat fee of $10,000 per title [3] with no backend royalty whatsoever. I thought that meant a $10,000 license for Closed Source Versions like Urban Terror ECT. Their standalone version of thier game IS closed source. When did this change? Chris On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:35 PM, wrote: > > told that any game being offered as a whole built on top of > > the q3 engine or any deriv still required a license. It's also stated > > here, > > http://www.idsoftware.com/business/technology/techlicense.php > > Actually, read the page a bit more closely. It's under the QUAKE section > that id explains how you can use the GPL'ed engines they release. The Q3 > section (and Q2) doesn't really cover it so I can see how you'd get the > wrong impression by only looking at the Q3 section(s). Some relevent > quotes so you don't have to hunt too much: > > > "If, for example, you have an amateur team that is long on talent but > short on cash and needs a proven engine to develop a game that can be > distributed commercially, it doesn't get much better than 'Free.' If you > abide by the GPL terms, then the QUAKE technology is truly just a gift > from id. And, unlike some 'bargain' licensors, we don't impose ANY > restrictions on your distribution channel: retail, Internet, shareware, > magazine coverdisk ? whatever YOU choose." > > "For teams that don't want to operate under the GPL, we're now offering a > "non-GPL" QUAKE engine license for a flat fee of $10,000 per title [3] > with no backend royalty whatsoever. This means that you can grab the > source and tools from our FTP site and sign a separate agreement with us, > allowing you to keep your source modifications confidential (if you > like)." > > > Replace "QUAKE" with "QUAKE 3 ARENA" and it's the same deal. > > Monk. > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott at hermitworksentertainment.com Wed Apr 16 21:14:36 2008 From: scott at hermitworksentertainment.com (Scott Brooks) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:14:36 -0600 Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> On Wednesday 16 April 2008 6:40:21 pm Christopher Bunting wrote: > Hello, > > You are correct. *If you abide by the GPL terms, *is the part I was talking > about. I was under the assumption that abiding by the GPL meant that you > had to offer all of your code modifications to the public for free in > exchange for using the engine for free. As an example, Urban Terror only > offers the base Ioquake3 code in SVN to the public. But that SVN code > doesn't contain any of thier code modifications. They don't release their > modified code back to the public nor does any of the other mods. NSCO and a > few others, as listed here, http://synapse.vgfort.com/quake3.php are the > only ones to my knowlegde that had actually followed the GPL. > > Maybe things have changed. But as I mentioned, I was told that any Closed > Source game / Mod distributed on Q3 source code required some type of > licensing. > > *EG from your reply:* > "For teams that don't want to operate under the GPL, we're now offering a > "non-GPL" QUAKE engine license for a flat fee of $10,000 per title [3] > with no backend royalty whatsoever. > > I thought that meant a $10,000 license for Closed Source Versions like > Urban Terror ECT. Their standalone version of thier game IS closed source. > > When did this change? > > Chris > I assume that they are keeping their "mod"(cgame, game, ui) code under the original quake 3 mod license which is pretty much a non commercial license from what I remember, then using ioquake3 to load their qvm's. They would need to release their changes to the ioquake3 engine itself though if they wanted to abide by that license. I just checked their FAQ at http://www.urbanterror.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.5 and all of this is described in the Licence Stuff section. -- Scott Brooks Programmer HermitWorks Entertainment http://www.hermitworksentertainment.com From monk at rq3.com Thu Apr 17 09:42:27 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:42:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Greetings In-Reply-To: <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> Message-ID: <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> >> Maybe things have changed. But as I mentioned, I was told that any >> Closed >> Source game / Mod distributed on Q3 source code required some type of >> licensing. Pretty much what Scott said. If UrT only worked on their custom version of ioq3, would they need to GPL their mod. However, they did it in reverse--their custom version of ioq3 is modified to be a host for their mod and the GPL'ed ioq3 relies then on their mod to run. If you make a GPL'ed piece of software, any closed-source libraries that it requires to run, say, win32, cannot be forced to become GPL. However, if some closed-source library ONLY works on some GPL'ed software, THEN you'd have to GPL the library as well. I think that's a specific example listed on the GPL website for GPLv2. Since UrT was originally made under the Q3 mod sdk, there's no reason to somehow retroactively force the licensing to change, nor do I think there's any legal grounds to that. Just because q3 had a GPL'ed version released does not mean work done on the prior version/license has to become GPL now. I think that's also a specific example listed on the GPL website for GPLv2. As long as UrT, the mod, still works on both vanilla Q3 and on ioq3, there's no reason the mod should fall under the GPL. If UrT ONLY worked on ioq3, THEN it would have to fall under the GPL. Just because UrT has the mod code wrapped up in ioq3 doesn't automatically mean you have to abide by GPL. UrT did it pretty much the only way you can do it to remain closed-source and probably the way I would have gone about it if I wanted to keep a mod closed source. There are one or two other exceptions/loopholes for this kind of thing, but I believe this is the easiest to implement. Contract law = hate hate hate. Monk. From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 17 10:28:35 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:28:35 +0100 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> monk at rq3.com wrote: > If you make a GPL'ed piece of software, any closed-source libraries that > it requires to run, say, win32, cannot be forced to become GPL. This is not true. A GPLed application categorically requires libraries to be GPL compatible. Perhaps you're getting confused with the GPL exception for runtime libraries? In any case, you should probably read: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLIncompatibleLibs > As long as UrT, the mod, still works on both vanilla Q3 and on ioq3, > there's no reason the mod should fall under the GPL. If UrT ONLY worked > on ioq3, THEN it would have to fall under the GPL. You've got the dependency backwards here. ioUrT depends on UrT as this is its BASEGAME. Since ioUrT is GPL, any libraries on which it depends must be GPL compatible. The Q3 mod SDK license, which is used by UrT, is not GPL compatible. Therefore it violates the GPL. Furthermore, said Q3 mod SDK license states that any distributed works are for use with "QUAKE III ARENA" only. By inference this means not ioq3. Therefore it violates the Q3 mod SDK license. > UrT did it pretty much the only way you can do it to remain > closed-source and probably the way I would have gone about it if I wanted > to keep a mod closed source. If they were distribtuing UrT and ioUrT as separate entities, they probably could get away with it (although the ioUrT dependency on UrT is still potentially an issue). I conveyed most of my thoughts on this whole debacle on the UrT forums, but the thread got locked without any real reaction from the people responsible. They're just avoiding the issue if you ask me. From erik at insectenboek.nl Thu Apr 17 11:07:24 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:07:24 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> Message-ID: <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> Hi, my nickname is 'woekele'. I used to be on the UrT dev team and part of what I did was maintaining ioUrbanTerror (the GPL engine). For Urban Terror (the sdk mod), I worked on the menus and some other random things. First I'd like you all to read http://ioquake3.org/2007/12/23/urban-terror-41/#comment-69 and the "License Stuff" section of http://www.urbanterror.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.5 I see Tim is giving his usual speech again :) On 17-4-2008 16:28, Tim Angus wrote: > ioUrT depends on UrT as this is its BASEGAME. WRONG. Being BASEGAME != depending on. It can run any other mod no problem at all by just setting the appropriate fs_game. *So there's no GPL violation by ioUrbanTerror.* > Furthermore, said Q3 mod SDK license states that any distributed works > are for use with "QUAKE III ARENA" only. By inference this means not > ioq3. Therefore it violates the Q3 mod SDK license. It actually says that you can use the sdk to CREATE mods for operation with Q3A only, it doesn't say the mods are for USAGE with Q3A only. Pretty important difference. Urban Terror (the mod) WAS created for Q3A and still works fine on it. It just HAPPENS to run on GPL Q3-engines too. And nothing forbids that. The UrT team even asked IDsoftware directly to make sure they were doing nothing wrong and IDsoftware gave them the okay. *So no SDK violation either.* > If they were distribtuing UrT and ioUrT as separate entities, they > probably could get away with it (although the ioUrT dependency on UrT is > still potentially an issue). They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one zip/installer for convenience. Anyway, as you could read in the first link I gave: "I think the Urban Terror mod code should go GPL, cause the coder for Urban Terror barely has time to work on it anyway. Also it would avoid all this legal hassle. It would be a great form of respect towards IDsoftware and ioquake3 coders, who also made their work (the base of Urban Terror?s success) available. And of course to be a REAL stand-alone game. The assets/copyright/whatever could still stay with the Urban Terror team. So yeah, enough reasons to GPL the mod code. However, legally not required." PS: I am now retired from Urban Terror, so I couldn't really care less about all this, but I just can't stand it when I see wrong information being passed on. From benikaj at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 12:07:43 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:07:43 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> Erik K. wrote: >> If they were distribtuing UrT and ioUrT as separate entities, they >> probably could get away with it (although the ioUrT dependency on UrT >> is still potentially an issue). > > They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one zip/installer > for convenience. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation "What is the difference between an ?aggregate? and other kinds of ?modified versions?? "An ?aggregate? consists of a number of separate programs, distributed together on the same CD-ROM or other media. The GPL permits you to create and distribute an aggregate, even when the licenses of the other software are non-free or GPL-incompatible. The only condition is that you cannot release the aggregate under a license that prohibits users from exercising rights that the each program's individual license would grant them."... Just FYI From erik at insectenboek.nl Thu Apr 17 12:29:25 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:29:25 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48077AE5.7060203@insectenboek.nl> On 17-4-2008 18:07, Anthony J. Benik wrote: > "An ?aggregate? consists of a number of separate programs, > distributed together on the same CD-ROM or other media. The GPL permits > you to create and distribute an aggregate, even when the licenses of the > other software are non-free or GPL-incompatible. The only condition is > that you cannot release the aggregate under a license that prohibits > users from exercising rights that the each program's individual license > would grant them."... > > Just FYI I don't know and don't really care about the details, but I do know that linux distros often come combined with closed source software as well. So I don't really see a problem. From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 17 14:19:12 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:19:12 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:07:24 +0200 Erik wrote: > Being BASEGAME != depending on. It can run any other mod no > problem at all by just setting the appropriate fs_game. *So there's > no GPL violation by ioUrbanTerror.* By setting BASEGAME you are indicating an intention of dependence. The fact that it /can/ run whatever other mod you want doesn't matter. If you think the "oh but it can do X" argument works you could prove all sorts of silly things. For example, say I have a closed app which I distribute with GPL libs which it relies on (kind of the reverse of the situation here). I can now say "oh but it /can/ use this set of closed libs over here too, which you can get yourself. NO GPL PROBLEM!". I hope you agree this is crazy talk. Besides who in their right mind is going to download UrT simply to run another mod? ioUrT is not a useful product without a game. Fortunately it is distributed with one and is configured to use it by default. If this is not dependence I don't know what is. > It actually says that you can use the sdk to CREATE mods for > operation with Q3A only, it doesn't say the mods are for USAGE with > Q3A only. Pretty important difference. Urban Terror (the mod) WAS > created for Q3A and still works fine on it. It just HAPPENS to run on > GPL Q3-engines too. And nothing forbids that. "a. So long as this Agreement accompanies each copy you make of the Software, and so long as you fully comply, at all times, with this Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited right to use the Software to create your own modifications (the ?New Creations?) for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA" So you're denying that distributing UrT with ioUrT suggests you should use UrT with ioUrT? Is your argument that it's the user deciding to use ioUrT? I really think that's pretty ridiculous. By distributing them together you're /inviting/ the user to use them in tandem. > The UrT team even asked > IDsoftware directly to make sure they were doing nothing wrong and > IDsoftware gave them the okay. *So no SDK violation either.* I was under the impression that the correspondance with id was in order to secure a waiver from the above clause; i.e. admission of a licensing issue and legal permission to ignore it. Unfortunately since no one arguing over the licensing has ever seen or produced the communication in question (including you, or so you told us), it doesn't seem worth mentioning. > They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one > zip/installer for convenience. By that logic, is the baseq3 game a separate product from Q3A? > PS: I am now retired from Urban Terror, so I couldn't really care > less about all this > I don't know and don't really care about the details, ...but you're certain there are no licensing problems? > but I do know that linux distros often come combined with closed > source software as well. So I don't really see a problem. Linux distributions are aggregations of independent works. ioUrT and UrT share headers, data structures and APIs which are intended to interoperate. This analogy is silly. Regardless of your opinion/thoughts of the licenses employed, you can't deny that at best the whole shebang has been engineered to skirt any licensing issues and avoid giving anything back. I personally think that's a crock of shit. From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:01:34 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:01:34 -0400 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804171201v684b4037i1fcbf96cc40d7785@mail.gmail.com> Excepts from the Q3 GPL License.. For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code. ----------- On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Tim Angus wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:07:24 +0200 Erik wrote: > > Being BASEGAME != depending on. It can run any other mod no > > problem at all by just setting the appropriate fs_game. *So there's > > no GPL violation by ioUrbanTerror.* > > By setting BASEGAME you are indicating an intention of dependence. > The fact that it /can/ run whatever other mod you want doesn't matter. > > If you think the "oh but it can do X" argument works you could prove > all sorts of silly things. For example, say I have a closed app which I > distribute with GPL libs which it relies on (kind of the reverse of the > situation here). I can now say "oh but it /can/ use this set of closed > libs over here too, which you can get yourself. NO GPL PROBLEM!". I hope > you agree this is crazy talk. > > Besides who in their right mind is going to download UrT simply to run > another mod? ioUrT is not a useful product without a game. Fortunately > it is distributed with one and is configured to use it by default. If > this is not dependence I don't know what is. > > > It actually says that you can use the sdk to CREATE mods for > > operation with Q3A only, it doesn't say the mods are for USAGE with > > Q3A only. Pretty important difference. Urban Terror (the mod) WAS > > created for Q3A and still works fine on it. It just HAPPENS to run on > > GPL Q3-engines too. And nothing forbids that. > > "a. So long as this Agreement accompanies each copy you make of the > Software, and so long as you fully comply, at all times, with this > Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to > distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial > purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited > right to use the Software to create your own modifications (the "New > Creations") for operation only with the full version of the software > game QUAKE III ARENA" > > So you're denying that distributing UrT with ioUrT suggests you > should use UrT with ioUrT? Is your argument that it's the user deciding > to use ioUrT? I really think that's pretty ridiculous. By distributing > them together you're /inviting/ the user to use them in tandem. > > > The UrT team even asked > > IDsoftware directly to make sure they were doing nothing wrong and > > IDsoftware gave them the okay. *So no SDK violation either.* > > I was under the impression that the correspondance with id was in order > to secure a waiver from the above clause; i.e. admission of a licensing > issue and legal permission to ignore it. Unfortunately since no one > arguing over the licensing has ever seen or produced the > communication in question (including you, or so you told us), it > doesn't seem worth mentioning. > > > They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one > > zip/installer for convenience. > > By that logic, is the baseq3 game a separate product from Q3A? > > > PS: I am now retired from Urban Terror, so I couldn't really care > > less about all this > > > I don't know and don't really care about the details, > > ...but you're certain there are no licensing problems? > > > but I do know that linux distros often come combined with closed > > source software as well. So I don't really see a problem. > > Linux distributions are aggregations of independent works. ioUrT and UrT > share headers, data structures and APIs which are intended to > interoperate. This analogy is silly. > > Regardless of your opinion/thoughts of the licenses employed, you can't > deny that at best the whole shebang has been engineered to skirt any > licensing issues and avoid giving anything back. I personally think > that's a crock of shit. > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:13:38 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:13:38 -0400 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804171201v684b4037i1fcbf96cc40d7785@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <7a44ba370804171201v684b4037i1fcbf96cc40d7785@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804171213od9042bfpd813919c40ef302e@mail.gmail.com> I sent the last reply before I finished. *Question for Tim..* Since you seem to know a good bit about the licensing.. Quake 1 and Quake 2 Engines are both GPL'd.. Quake 3's source was released under the GPL Terms, but the engine is not GPL. You will see this very information by viewing the Technology Download section at ID's site. Both quake 1 / 2 include a reference to the GPL'd engines, whereas Quake 3 does not.. So what is the real difference here? Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erik at insectenboek.nl Thu Apr 17 15:40:22 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:40:22 +0200 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> On 17-4-2008 20:19, Tim Angus wrote: > indicating an intention of dependence. Seems like a weak argument to me. If you really feel so bad about it though, I'll tell them to change 'basegame' to 'timangus' next release. That way, the game will be dependant on you? ^^ It would still work fine and it wouldn't be 'dependant' on UrT anymore. GPL problem solved? > "a. So long as this Agreement accompanies each copy you make of the > Software, and so long as you fully comply, at all times, with this > Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to > distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial > purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited > right to use the Software to create your own modifications (the ?New > Creations?) for operation only with the full version of the software > game QUAKE III ARENA" > > So you're denying that distributing UrT with ioUrT suggests you > should use UrT with ioUrT? Is your argument that it's the user deciding > to use ioUrT? I really think that's pretty ridiculous. By distributing > them together you're /inviting/ the user to use them in tandem. The sdk does not say you can USE a mod only on Q3A. It just says the mod has to be CREATED for operation only with Q3A. And that it is. It's coded to work on Q3A. It HAPPENS to run on any Q3-based-engine. >> The UrT team even asked >> IDsoftware directly to make sure they were doing nothing wrong and >> IDsoftware gave them the okay. *So no SDK violation either.* > > I was under the impression that the correspondance with id was in order > to secure a waiver from the above clause; i.e. admission of a licensing > issue and legal permission to ignore it. Unfortunately since no one > arguing over the licensing has ever seen or produced the > communication in question (including you, or so you told us), it > doesn't seem worth mentioning. Haha. The sdk is a matter between ID and the UrT devs. Why would they feel obligated to 'proof' to you that this correspondance happened? And yes, it was an "okay, that's legally fine", not an "okay, we'll make an exception for you". >> They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one >> zip/installer for convenience. > > By that logic, is the baseq3 game a separate product from Q3A? By that logic, it could have been. If the ID would have decided to brand it like that. But they didn't. >> PS: I am now retired from Urban Terror, so I couldn't really care >> less about all this > >> I don't know and don't really care about the details, > > ...but you're certain there are no licensing problems? Thanks for taking those lines out of context. Just because I don't care about it, doesn't mean I don't know about it. Just because I don't know about the details of aggregating doesn't mean I don't know about how bundling closed and open software is often perfectly fine. Yes, I am sure there are no licensing problems. Are you sure there are? Get a lawyer and sue the hell out of the Urban Terror Mod Team for all their money ;) I'm sure they got very rich from their free mod. >> but I do know that linux distros often come combined with closed >> source software as well. So I don't really see a problem. > > Linux distributions are aggregations of independent works. ioUrT and UrT > share headers, data structures and APIs which are intended to > interoperate. This analogy is silly. ioUrT and UrT are independent works too. UrT is based on the Q3-sdk. ioUrT is based on ioquake3. They happen to share those headers etc. But ioUrT and UrT were definatly developed separately from each other, by different people, working of different code bases. > Regardless of your opinion/thoughts of the licenses employed, you can't > deny that at best the whole shebang has been engineered to skirt any > licensing issues and avoid giving anything back. I personally think > that's a crock of shit. I assume you missed the last paragraph of my initial message: "I think the Urban Terror mod code should go GPL, cause the coder for Urban Terror barely has time to work on it anyway. Also it would avoid all this legal hassle. It would be a great form of respect towards IDsoftware and ioquake3 coders, who also made their work (the base of Urban Terror?s success) available. And of course to be a REAL stand-alone game. The assets/copyright/whatever could still stay with the Urban Terror team. So yeah, enough reasons to GPL the mod code. However, legally not required." From linuxmanmikec at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:44:50 2008 From: linuxmanmikec at gmail.com (LinuxManMikeC) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:44:50 -0400 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804171213od9042bfpd813919c40ef302e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <7a44ba370804171201v684b4037i1fcbf96cc40d7785@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804171213od9042bfpd813919c40ef302e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4561ec380804171244t49dc015bw1013b9c7dec1e4bc@mail.gmail.com> Chris, The Quake 3 source code you refer to is the source code OF THE ENGINE! It is available under the GPL license or you can buy a commercial license from id Software. http://www.idsoftware.com/business/idtech3/ On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Christopher Bunting wrote: > I sent the last reply before I finished. > > Question for Tim.. Since you seem to know a good bit about the licensing.. > > Quake 1 and Quake 2 Engines are both GPL'd.. > > Quake 3's source was released under the GPL Terms, but the engine is not > GPL. > > You will see this very information by viewing the Technology Download > section at ID's site. Both quake 1 / 2 include a reference to the GPL'd > engines, whereas Quake 3 does not.. > > So what is the real difference here? > > Chris From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 15:55:42 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:55:42 +0200 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: I think it would be best if you two settled this issue via private mail correspondence and stopped flooding this mailing list. When you're finished determining who has the longest (breath), tell us the result in a single email, so we can learn from it. Thanks for your cooperation, Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik K." To: Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) > On 17-4-2008 20:19, Tim Angus wrote: >> indicating an intention of dependence. > Seems like a weak argument to me. If you really feel so bad about it > though, I'll tell them to change 'basegame' to 'timangus' next release. > That way, the game will be dependant on you? ^^ It would still work fine > and it wouldn't be 'dependant' on UrT anymore. GPL problem solved? > >> "a. So long as this Agreement accompanies each copy you make of the >> Software, and so long as you fully comply, at all times, with this >> Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to >> distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial >> purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited >> right to use the Software to create your own modifications (the ?New >> Creations?) for operation only with the full version of the software >> game QUAKE III ARENA" >> >> So you're denying that distributing UrT with ioUrT suggests you >> should use UrT with ioUrT? Is your argument that it's the user deciding >> to use ioUrT? I really think that's pretty ridiculous. By distributing >> them together you're /inviting/ the user to use them in tandem. > The sdk does not say you can USE a mod only on Q3A. It just says the mod > has to be CREATED for operation only with Q3A. And that it is. It's coded > to work on Q3A. It HAPPENS to run on any Q3-based-engine. > >>> The UrT team even asked >>> IDsoftware directly to make sure they were doing nothing wrong and >>> IDsoftware gave them the okay. *So no SDK violation either.* >> >> I was under the impression that the correspondance with id was in order >> to secure a waiver from the above clause; i.e. admission of a licensing >> issue and legal permission to ignore it. Unfortunately since no one >> arguing over the licensing has ever seen or produced the >> communication in question (including you, or so you told us), it >> doesn't seem worth mentioning. > Haha. The sdk is a matter between ID and the UrT devs. Why would they feel > obligated to 'proof' to you that this correspondance happened? And yes, it > was an "okay, that's legally fine", not an "okay, we'll make an exception > for you". > >>> They ARE separate products, they are just bundled in one >>> zip/installer for convenience. >> >> By that logic, is the baseq3 game a separate product from Q3A? > By that logic, it could have been. If the ID would have decided to brand > it like that. But they didn't. > >>> PS: I am now retired from Urban Terror, so I couldn't really care >>> less about all this >> >>> I don't know and don't really care about the details, >> >> ...but you're certain there are no licensing problems? > Thanks for taking those lines out of context. Just because I don't care > about it, doesn't mean I don't know about it. Just because I don't know > about the details of aggregating doesn't mean I don't know about how > bundling closed and open software is often perfectly fine. Yes, I am sure > there are no licensing problems. Are you sure there are? Get a lawyer and > sue the hell out of the Urban Terror Mod Team for all their money ;) I'm > sure they got very rich from their free mod. > >>> but I do know that linux distros often come combined with closed >>> source software as well. So I don't really see a problem. >> >> Linux distributions are aggregations of independent works. ioUrT and UrT >> share headers, data structures and APIs which are intended to >> interoperate. This analogy is silly. > ioUrT and UrT are independent works too. UrT is based on the Q3-sdk. ioUrT > is based on ioquake3. They happen to share those headers etc. But ioUrT > and UrT were definatly developed separately from each other, by different > people, working of different code bases. > >> Regardless of your opinion/thoughts of the licenses employed, you can't >> deny that at best the whole shebang has been engineered to skirt any >> licensing issues and avoid giving anything back. I personally think >> that's a crock of shit. > I assume you missed the last paragraph of my initial message: > "I think the Urban Terror mod code should go GPL, cause the coder for > Urban Terror barely has time to work on it anyway. Also it would avoid all > this legal hassle. It would be a great form of respect towards IDsoftware > and ioquake3 coders, who also made their work (the base of Urban Terror?s > success) available. And of course to be a REAL stand-alone game. The > assets/copyright/whatever could still stay with the Urban Terror team. So > yeah, enough reasons to GPL the mod code. However, legally not required." > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From erik at insectenboek.nl Thu Apr 17 15:56:18 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:56:18 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4807AB62.3050408@insectenboek.nl> On 17-4-2008 18:07, Anthony J. Benik wrote: > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation > > "What is the difference between an ?aggregate? and other kinds of > ?modified versions?? > > "An ?aggregate? consists of a number of separate programs, > distributed together on the same CD-ROM or other media. The GPL permits > you to create and distribute an aggregate, even when the licenses of the > other software are non-free or GPL-incompatible. The only condition is > that you cannot release the aggregate under a license that prohibits > users from exercising rights that the each program's individual license > would grant them."... > > Just FYI I thought about this some more and have come to the conclusion that Urban Terror indeed abides by this condition perfectly. The licenses that come with the UrbanTerror/ioUrbanTerror 'aggregate' are the GPL for the ioUrbanTerror part and the sdk for the Urban Terror part. This is clearly discribed in the readme's and/or during the installation process. So users are not being prohibited from exercising rights that each program's individual license would grant them. Thus aggregating them is fine. Thanks Anthony. From zcat at zcat.geek.nz Thu Apr 17 15:57:10 2008 From: zcat at zcat.geek.nz (Bruce Kingsbury) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:57:10 +1200 Subject: Fwd: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804171213od9042bfpd813919c40ef302e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <7a44ba370804171201v684b4037i1fcbf96cc40d7785@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804171213od9042bfpd813919c40ef302e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54e2f3c80804171257j2b2db97axadf4b56a0ab8ef57@mail.gmail.com> > Quake 3's source was released under the GPL Terms, but the engine is not > GPL. > > You will see this very information by viewing the Technology Download > section at ID's site. Both quake 1 / 2 include a reference to the GPL'd > engines, whereas Quake 3 does not.. > > So what is the real difference here? Is it possible to distribute the source under GPL, but then claim that the executables produced by compiling that source are under a more 'permissive' (BSD-style) license? If that was their aim, they should have released the source under a BSD license. I'm fairly sure that no possible reading of the GPL allows such a situation! ID can certainly dual-license their code; release a free GPL version and sell a $10,000 executable-only license. I think the license situation is very similar to that of nVidia's drivers.. they're closed source and OS-independent, and for Linux they come with a GPL-compatible wrapper-layer. While perhaps technically not violating the word of the GPL, this arrangement violates the spirit of it. I'm surprised iD don't step in and ask that UrT developers properly honor the GPL, or pay for the right to distribute a non-Free standalone game. From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 17 16:17:56 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:17:56 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:40:22 +0200 Erik wrote: > If you really feel so bad about it > though, I'll tell them to change 'basegame' to 'timangus' next > release. That way, the game will be dependant on you? ^^ It would > still work fine and it wouldn't be 'dependant' on UrT anymore. GPL > problem solved? Assuming ioUrT and UrT were separated, yes. > The sdk does not say you can USE a mod only on Q3A. It just says the > mod has to be CREATED for operation only with Q3A. And that it is. > It's coded to work on Q3A. It HAPPENS to run on any Q3-based-engine. You're only reading one part. "[...] ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial purposes by electronic means only [...] for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA" > Haha. The sdk is a matter between ID and the UrT devs. Why would they > feel obligated to 'proof' to you that this correspondance happened? > And yes, it was an "okay, that's legally fine", not an "okay, we'll > make an exception for you". The point I was trying to make is that it's worthless mentioning this unless you actually display the correspondance. It's like me saying "it's OK to rob the bank, the police said I could". > >By that logic, is the baseq3 game a separate product from Q3A? > > By that logic, it could have been. If the ID would have decided to > brand it like that. But they didn't. They didn't because it is a single product and doesn't make any sense to divide it in two. > Just because I don't care about it, doesn't mean I don't know about > it. Just because I don't know about the details of aggregating > doesn't mean I don't know about how bundling closed and open software > is often perfectly fine. You seem to be getting quite emotional for someone that doesn't care :). > Yes, I am sure there are no licensing problems. Are you sure there > are? No, of course not. Legality is rarely black and white. This is after all why lawyers exist in the first place. > Get a lawyer and sue the hell out of the Urban Terror Mod Team > for all their money ;) I'm sure they got very rich from their free > mod. It's the principle that is at stake here, not finance. > ioUrT and UrT are independent works too. UrT is based on the Q3-sdk. > ioUrT is based on ioquake3. If they were distributed separately, these sentences would be true. > They happen to share those headers etc. They "happen" to share those headers because they're the same headers :). > But ioUrT and UrT were definatly developed separately from each > other, by different people, working of different code bases. ...and by combining the two through code and distribution you create a single product. > I assume you missed the last paragraph of my initial message: No I didn't. In fact this is the part that confuses me the most. You seem to be all for releasing the UrT source yet you were instrumental in preventing it by firstly creating ioUrT and secondly through convincing yourself and others that the licensing is not a problem. And now you continue to do so /despite/ claiming not to care and /despite/ not being involved with UrT's development any longer. This seems like a bit of a contradiction to me. From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 17 16:20:18 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:20:18 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <20080417212018.14639354.tim@ngus.net> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:55:42 +0200 Stephan wrote: > I think it would be best if you two settled this issue via private > mail correspondence and stopped flooding this mailing list. When > you're finished determining who has the longest (breath), tell us the > result in a single email, so we can learn from it. I think this is an issue that deserves to be discussed publically since it affects many. You could obtain a mail client that lets you ignore threads or you could always leave the list if the volume is otherwise too much for you. From monk at rq3.com Thu Apr 17 17:57:24 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> Message-ID: <59618.63.150.173.150.1208469444.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> >> As long as UrT, the mod, still works on both vanilla Q3 and on ioq3, >> there's no reason the mod should fall under the GPL. If UrT ONLY worked >> on ioq3, THEN it would have to fall under the GPL. > > You've got the dependency backwards here. ioUrT depends on UrT as this > is its BASEGAME. Since ioUrT is GPL, any libraries on which it depends > must be GPL compatible. The Q3 mod SDK license, which is used by UrT, is > not GPL compatible. Therefore it violates the GPL. > > Furthermore, said Q3 mod SDK license states that any distributed works > are for use with "QUAKE III ARENA" only. By inference this means not > ioq3. Therefore it violates the Q3 mod SDK license. So to remove this dependency in your mind, ioUrT would have to: 1. Check to see if UrT is installed. If it is load UrT like it normally does. 2. If not installed, fallback to some generic ioq3-ish behavior where one could load any mod via a menu or load the baseq3 content. That would make the ioUrT part function independently without any manual dinking around by the end-user, ya? I have NEVER tried UrT or ioUrT so I do not know if this is how they already do it or not. Since UrT the mod already has no dependency to any specific flavor of Q3, it won't be forced to any license. Basically, what you seem to be saying [from the 10 emails after this one, not this specific email] is that if someone is able to reverse-engineer a library/platform/game and release their code under GPL, any program that uses that library should be forced to GPL. The fact that Q3 was released under multiple licenses (original retail, GPL, and $10,000) does not mean that a mod which will run on platforms based on all three licenses must be GPL'ed. If someone created a ground-up remake of the Quake 4 engine and released it as GPL, would that force any Quake 4 mod that it could run to also be GPL'ed? To me, that seems to be what you're saying. >> UrT did it pretty much the only way you can do it to remain >> closed-source and probably the way I would have gone about it if I >> wanted >> to keep a mod closed source. > > If they were distribtuing UrT and ioUrT as separate entities, they > probably could get away with it (although the ioUrT dependency on UrT is > still potentially an issue). If ioUrT had a solid automatic fallback, I don't see distributing them together as a problem. I'm referencing GPL2 only stuff since I believe that's what id released under. It seems your entire issue is with how ioUrT is handling UrT. If ioUrT didn't require someone to manually set the basegame to use it for something besides UrT, would you have the same objection to UrT being closed-source? Monk. From monk at rq3.com Thu Apr 17 18:15:34 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:15:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <59744.63.150.173.150.1208470534.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> >> Haha. The sdk is a matter between ID and the UrT devs. Why would they >> feel obligated to 'proof' to you that this correspondance happened? >> And yes, it was an "okay, that's legally fine", not an "okay, we'll >> make an exception for you". > > The point I was trying to make is that it's worthless mentioning this > unless you actually display the correspondance. It's like me saying > "it's OK to rob the bank, the police said I could". Well, I asked some GPL-ish questions to Todd Hollenshead in 2006. This email was to ask about text-based assets like the "shiney" and "reflection" shaders and the botfiles/library. The section that seems most relevent is how adamant he is about licensing terms. I suppose the UrT team didn't get a change in terms as much as a "we don't care enough to sue you" statement from id. Anyway, here's his reply to me: Subject: Re: Quake 3 GPL - question - sorry to bother you Date: Fri, April 14, 2006 5:11 pm Just as a matter of practice, I can't make email or verbal modifications to our license framework. It would just end up being a disaster that no one could figure out and everyone would think is unfair and certainly many would try to take advantage of. So I want you to understand at the outset that even if something seems pretty much okay in the abstract or in a particular situation, I still won't modify the language of the EULA, GPL or other license agreements. Having made that point, it seems that the core issue is that the GPL only covers the engine source code and related files as we have made them available on our FTP site. Shaders or other text bases assets that are included in the "engine" or the files sets released on id's FTP site in the GPL'd code are fair game. Other assets, regardless of file type or structure that are related to Quake 3 are NOT under the GPL, but are under whatever the relevant license they were released under (game EULA, mod EULA, etc.) and those licenses still must govern the use of the content. When you go "stand alone" for your mod, that makes it so anyone can play it without having to purchase anything, but it also means that you have to create or perhaps re-create what probably ends up being a fairly sizable amount of content. That pretty much sucks and I wish I had a "line-item" ability to pick where I grant permission, but as I discussed above, we can't run the business that way. I hope this addresses your issue, even if the answer isn't what you may have hoped. Regards, tsh From tim at ngus.net Thu Apr 17 19:41:56 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:41:56 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <59618.63.150.173.150.1208469444.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <59618.63.150.173.150.1208469444.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <20080418004156.90a53ad4.tim@ngus.net> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:57:24 -0600 (MDT) monk at rq3.com wrote: > That would make the ioUrT part function independently without any > manual dinking around by the end-user, ya? I have NEVER tried UrT or > ioUrT so I do not know if this is how they already do it or not. ioUrT and UrT are distributed together thereby forming a single product. This is the issue. ioUrT elects UrT as its BASEGAME. Trivial as this is, it indicates the intention that ioUrt is dependent upon UrT, but that is already obvious as they are part of the same product. > Since UrT the mod already has no dependency to any specific flavor of > Q3, it won't be forced to any license. Any Q3 mod is forced to one of two licenses, the Q3 SDK license or GPL. These are the options that the copyright holder (id) has gifted us. You are correct that no one can force UrT to go GPL, assuming it remains a mod. However, distributing it together as a single product with intended dependencies means it is no longer simply a mod, but a standalone product. In this case the GPL rules all. > [from the 10 emails after this one, not this specific email] Hehe, I think you're the last person who should be criticising my verbosity ;) > If someone created a ground-up remake of the Quake 4 engine and > released it as GPL, would that force any Quake 4 mod that it could > run to also be GPL'ed? To me, that seems to be what you're saying. No, that would be absurd. However, if the Q4 remake was then distributed with a closed source mod as a single product, the closed mod would need to use a GPL compatible license. > It seems your entire issue is with how ioUrT is handling UrT. If > ioUrT didn't require someone to manually set the basegame to use it > for something besides UrT, would you have the same objection to UrT > being closed-source? That's a side issue really; the BASEGAME thing is just an indication of intent, albeit an important one wrt the GPL. The major problem in my mind is distributing ioUrT and UrT as one product. If they were separate as with an earlier release, we would be more comfortable. From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Thu Apr 17 19:52:19 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:52:19 +0200 Subject: ioquake3 anaglyphed Message-ID: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hi, stop arguing, get your red-cyan glasses and check this out: http://thilo.tjps.eu/bilder/screenshots/quake3/ Patch to make it happen: http://thilo.tjps.eu/download/patches/ioquake3-rev1323_anaglyph.diff /r_anaglyphMode 1 you may also want to fiddle with /cg_stereoseparation a value of 4 to 8 gets you pretty decent results. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From tw3k.net at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 19:53:11 2008 From: tw3k.net at gmail.com (Forest Dean Feighner) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:53:11 -0400 Subject: [quake3] ioquake3 anaglyphed In-Reply-To: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <4807E2E7.2050406@gmail.com> heh, cool! Thilo Schulz wrote: > Hi, > > stop arguing, get your red-cyan glasses and check this out: > > http://thilo.tjps.eu/bilder/screenshots/quake3/ > > Patch to make it happen: > > http://thilo.tjps.eu/download/patches/ioquake3-rev1323_anaglyph.diff > > /r_anaglyphMode 1 > you may also want to fiddle with > /cg_stereoseparation > a value of 4 to 8 gets you pretty decent results. > > From rjisaac at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 22:34:33 2008 From: rjisaac at gmail.com (Robert Isaac) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:34:33 -0400 Subject: [quake3] ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080418004156.90a53ad4.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <59618.63.150.173.150.1208469444.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080418004156.90a53ad4.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <3b47d0520804171934na007283jf72082440dbc4754@mail.gmail.com> > That's a side issue really; the BASEGAME thing is just an indication of > intent, albeit an important one wrt the GPL. The major problem in my > mind is distributing ioUrT and UrT as one product. If they were separate > as with an earlier release, we would be more comfortable. Unless you are willing to argue that basegame is linked to the engine in any way, the urban terror people aren't doing anything illegal. From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 02:05:57 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:05:57 +0200 Subject: [quake3] ioquake3 anaglyphed In-Reply-To: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: AWESOME! I think I still have some glasses back from when they used to broadcast "3d shows" on TV, i.e. Pro 7's nature documentations. Very good work, Thilo! Stephan Am 18.04.2008 um 01:52 schrieb Thilo Schulz: > Hi, > > stop arguing, get your red-cyan glasses and check this out: > > http://thilo.tjps.eu/bilder/screenshots/quake3/ > > Patch to make it happen: > > http://thilo.tjps.eu/download/patches/ioquake3-rev1323_anaglyph.diff > > /r_anaglyphMode 1 > you may also want to fiddle with > /cg_stereoseparation > a value of 4 to 8 gets you pretty decent results. > > -- > Thilo Schulz From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Fri Apr 18 05:03:21 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:03:21 +0200 Subject: [quake3] ioquake3 anaglyphed In-Reply-To: References: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <200804181103.44847.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Freitag, 18. April 2008, Stephan Reiter wrote: > Very good work, Thilo! Thank you. Most of the stereoscopic stuff was already there, though. Apparently, some versions of quake3 used to support shutter glasses so I used that as base and instead of writing to two seperate buffers (e.g. GL_BACK_LEFT and GL_BACK_RIGHT) I just had to make sure via ColorMask that only some colour channels are written to. So this was not very difficult and could be done with some common sense, even though I don't really know OpenGL :) A weakness of this method is that these are colored anaglyphs and it won't work for objects that only have one color, say red objects. So the impression is stronger if both images are converted to greyscale first and only then should the mapping to the respective colors be done. Is this possible without the use of fragment shaders? Obviously, that processing would have to be done in the very end when the image has finished rendering. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 07:39:36 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:39:36 +0200 Subject: [quake3] ioquake3 anaglyphed In-Reply-To: <200804181103.44847.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804180152.22025.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200804181103.44847.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: Wouldn't it be possible to convert textures during map loading to a greyscale format? If you then hook the glColor*f to set greyscale colors for modulation, you should be all set. Stephan Am 18.04.2008 um 11:03 schrieb Thilo Schulz: > On Freitag, 18. April 2008, Stephan Reiter wrote: >> Very good work, Thilo! > > Thank you. > Most of the stereoscopic stuff was already there, though. > Apparently, some > versions of quake3 used to support shutter glasses so I used that > as base and > instead of writing to two seperate buffers (e.g. GL_BACK_LEFT and > GL_BACK_RIGHT) I just had to make sure via ColorMask that only some > colour > channels are written to. > So this was not very difficult and could be done with some common > sense, even > though I don't really know OpenGL :) > A weakness of this method is that these are colored anaglyphs and > it won't > work for objects that only have one color, say red objects. So the > impression > is stronger if both images are converted to greyscale first and > only then > should the mapping to the respective colors be done. Is this > possible without > the use of fragment shaders? Obviously, that processing would have > to be done > in the very end when the image has finished rendering. > > -- > Thilo Schulz From baggett.patrick at ioquake.org Fri Apr 18 10:37:02 2008 From: baggett.patrick at ioquake.org (Patrick Baggett) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:37:02 -0500 Subject: IRIX Packages? Message-ID: I've completed a software package for SGI IRIX users (called a tardist), and it should be downloadable soon from Nekochan.net Is there any chance someone can put "IRIX 6.5 (MIPS IV packages)" on the "Get it" page? Or perhaps have a mirrored copy hosted locally? Patrick Baggett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pay7n at o2.pl Fri Apr 18 13:10:47 2008 From: pay7n at o2.pl (Mariusz Przybylski) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:10:47 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> Hi, Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to connect to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release 1.16n) thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a support for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take to have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half hundred players on 1.16 platform. Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, by what means? --Mario --- [Attachement] Protocol version, Point release version 68, 1.32 67, 1.31 66, 1.30 66, 1.29h 48, 1.27g 46, 1.26 45, 1.17 43, 1.16n From monk at rq3.com Fri Apr 18 13:26:55 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:26:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> Message-ID: <57022.63.150.173.150.1208539615.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to > connect to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol > error. > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban > Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release > 1.16n) thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. I don't quite understand. Why don't they port NoGhost to 1.32? I see that they have some work being started: http://www.noghost.net/modfiles/about.php http://www.noghost.net/modfiles/1.32/mod_log.php 1.16n, as far as I know, is only useful for the old Dreamcast version of Q3: http://dreamcast.onlineconsoles.com/phpBB2/guides_q3_serversetup.php http://www.quake3world.com/maps/maps/dcmappack.doc http://www.fileshack.com/file.x/595/Dreamcast+Map+Pack You guys are going to a lot of trouble to play a mod that only works with an older version of Q3. Why? Monk. From sketch at openverse.com Fri Apr 18 14:43:30 2008 From: sketch at openverse.com (Sketch) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:43:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, by > what means? Considering id only released the source for 1.32, someone would have to reverse engineer the old protocol(s). From benikaj at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 14:37:52 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:37:52 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> Message-ID: <4808EA80.8060509@gmail.com> Sketch wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > >> Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, >> by what means? > > Considering id only released the source for 1.32, someone would have to > reverse engineer the old protocol(s). Very good point! -- "I do not mean for a moment that we ought not to think, and think hard, about improvements in our social and economic system. What I do mean is that all that thinking will be mere moonshine unless we realize that nothing but the courage and unselfishness of individuals is ever going to make any system work properly." -- C. S. Lewis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 250 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 21:48:29 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:48:29 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> Hello, What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the protocal version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or 1.30, it's all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. Chris On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > Hi, > > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to connect > to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban > Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release 1.16n) > thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. > > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a support > for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually > USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take to > have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining > more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half > hundred players on 1.16 platform. > > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, by > what means? > > > --Mario > > --- > [Attachement] > > Protocol version, Point release version > 68, 1.32 > 67, 1.31 > 66, 1.30 > 66, 1.29h > 48, 1.27g > 46, 1.26 > 45, 1.17 > 43, 1.16n > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 03:13:22 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:13:22 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not modify any headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my opinion ... Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point discrepancies would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the server. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Bunting To: quake3 at icculus.org Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols Hello, What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the protocal version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or 1.30, it's all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. Chris On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: Hi, Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to connect to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release 1.16n) thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a support for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take to have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half hundred players on 1.16 platform. Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, by what means? --Mario --- [Attachement] Protocol version, Point release version 68, 1.32 67, 1.31 66, 1.30 66, 1.29h 48, 1.27g 46, 1.26 45, 1.17 43, 1.16n --- To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linuxmanmikec at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 10:52:02 2008 From: linuxmanmikec at gmail.com (LinuxManMikeC) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:52:02 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. Before that it was bug fixes. Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug fixes, so make them care. Mike On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Stephan Reiter wrote: > > > What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not modify any > headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my opinion ... > Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point discrepancies > would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the server. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Bunting > To: quake3 at icculus.org > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM > Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > > Hello, > > What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the protocal > version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or 1.30, it's > all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. > > Chris > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to connect > to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. > > > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban > Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release 1.16n) > thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. > > > > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a support > for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually > USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take to > have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining > more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half > hundred players on 1.16 platform. > > > > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, by > what means? > > > > > > --Mario > > > > --- > > [Attachement] > > > > Protocol version, Point release version > > 68, 1.32 > > 67, 1.31 > > 66, 1.30 > > 66, 1.29h > > 48, 1.27g > > 46, 1.26 > > 45, 1.17 > > 43, 1.16n > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > From zachary at ioquake.org Sat Apr 19 11:50:17 2008 From: zachary at ioquake.org (Zachary J. Slater) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:50:17 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4de771c30804190850h47779968wf0f909f05a26326@mail.gmail.com> This is pretty much exactly right, Chris Bunting is just trolling the list and/or merely ignorant and argumentative. On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:52 AM, LinuxManMikeC wrote: > Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has > only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine > where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One > obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. > Before that it was bug fixes. > > Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to > blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will > blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would > probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with > no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With > the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't > expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. > One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the > version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical > bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug > fixes, so make them care. > > Mike > > From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 12:18:10 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:18:10 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I think I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that. I was refering to Chris' suggestion when I suggested that trying "that" was pointless, as in changing PROTOCOL_VERSION and hoping that it works. Of course Id used the version to distinguish between versions of the protocol and give informative error messages when there's a mismatch. That's pretty much the standard approach to this sort of problem. Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: "LinuxManMikeC" To: Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has > only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine > where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One > obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. > Before that it was bug fixes. > > Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to > blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will > blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would > probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with > no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With > the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't > expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. > One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the > version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical > bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug > fixes, so make them care. > > Mike > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Stephan Reiter > wrote: >> >> >> What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not modify >> any >> headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my opinion >> ... >> Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point discrepancies >> would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the server. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Christopher Bunting >> To: quake3 at icculus.org >> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM >> Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols >> >> >> Hello, >> >> What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the protocal >> version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or 1.30, >> it's >> all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. >> >> Chris >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to >> > connect >> to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. >> > >> > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban >> Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release >> 1.16n) >> thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. >> > >> > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a >> > support >> for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually >> USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take >> to >> have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining >> more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half >> hundred players on 1.16 platform. >> > >> > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, >> > by >> what means? >> > >> > >> > --Mario >> > >> > --- >> > [Attachement] >> > >> > Protocol version, Point release version >> > 68, 1.32 >> > 67, 1.31 >> > 66, 1.30 >> > 66, 1.29h >> > 48, 1.27g >> > 46, 1.26 >> > 45, 1.17 >> > 43, 1.16n >> > >> > --- >> > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org >> > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > From cbunting99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 13:01:47 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:01:47 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804191001s62e33bbayed73e86c8870907@mail.gmail.com> Hello, You asked what protocals were supported. They are all supported. What I mentioned was a suggestion simply because if you are using version 1.32 source, then you still have support for the 1.17 protocal.. But you won't be telling the server that unless you specify which version. Chris On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Stephan Reiter wrote: > Ah, I think I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that. I was > refering to Chris' suggestion when I suggested that trying "that" was > pointless, as in changing PROTOCOL_VERSION and hoping that it works. > > Of course Id used the version to distinguish between versions of the > protocol and give informative error messages when there's a mismatch. That's > pretty much the standard approach to this sort of problem. > > Stephan > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "LinuxManMikeC" < > linuxmanmikec at gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > > Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has > > only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine > > where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One > > obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. > > Before that it was bug fixes. > > > > Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to > > blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will > > blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would > > probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with > > no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With > > the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't > > expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. > > One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the > > version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical > > bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug > > fixes, so make them care. > > > > Mike > > > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Stephan Reiter > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not > > > modify any > > > headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my > > > opinion ... > > > Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point > > > discrepancies > > > would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the > > > server. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Christopher Bunting > > > To: quake3 at icculus.org > > > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the > > > protocal > > > version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or > > > 1.30, it's > > > all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to > > > > connect > > > to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol > > > error. > > > > > > > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban > > > Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release > > > 1.16n) > > > thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. > > > > > > > > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a > > > > support > > > for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client > > > actually > > > USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would > > > take to > > > have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by > > > gaining > > > more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least > > > half > > > hundred players on 1.16 platform. > > > > > > > > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if > > > yes, > by > > > what means? > > > > > > > > > > > > --Mario > > > > > > > > --- > > > > [Attachement] > > > > > > > > Protocol version, Point release version > > > > 68, 1.32 > > > > 67, 1.31 > > > > 66, 1.30 > > > > 66, 1.29h > > > > 48, 1.27g > > > > 46, 1.26 > > > > 45, 1.17 > > > > 43, 1.16n > > > > > > > > --- > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 13:10:00 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:10:00 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804191001s62e33bbayed73e86c8870907@mail.gmail.com> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804191001s62e33bbayed73e86c8870907@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F7F65FDFE5645349C2B2E8A4391CA6A@Redmond> If you try to connect with an old 1.17 client to a new 1.32 server you will be dropped because the protocol versions don't match. Rest assured that the Q3 engine only supports a single version of the protocol. The version number is only transmitted to allow checks if both the client and the server "speak the same language". ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Bunting To: quake3 at icculus.org Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols Hello, You asked what protocals were supported. They are all supported. What I mentioned was a suggestion simply because if you are using version 1.32 source, then you still have support for the 1.17 protocal.. But you won't be telling the server that unless you specify which version. Chris On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Stephan Reiter wrote: Ah, I think I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that. I was refering to Chris' suggestion when I suggested that trying "that" was pointless, as in changing PROTOCOL_VERSION and hoping that it works. Of course Id used the version to distinguish between versions of the protocol and give informative error messages when there's a mismatch. That's pretty much the standard approach to this sort of problem. Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: "LinuxManMikeC" To: Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. Before that it was bug fixes. Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug fixes, so make them care. Mike On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Stephan Reiter wrote: What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not modify any headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my opinion ... Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point discrepancies would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the server. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Bunting To: quake3 at icculus.org Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols Hello, What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the protocal version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or 1.30, it's all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be updated. Chris On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > Hi, > > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to > connect to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol error. > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after Urban Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release 1.16n) thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. > > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a > support for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client actually USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would take to have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by gaining more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least half hundred players on 1.16 platform. > > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if yes, > by what means? > > > --Mario > > --- > [Attachement] > > Protocol version, Point release version > 68, 1.32 > 67, 1.31 > 66, 1.30 > 66, 1.29h > 48, 1.27g > 46, 1.26 > 45, 1.17 > 43, 1.16n > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > --- To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 --- To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 14:24:55 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:24:55 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <1F7F65FDFE5645349C2B2E8A4391CA6A@Redmond> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804191001s62e33bbayed73e86c8870907@mail.gmail.com> <1F7F65FDFE5645349C2B2E8A4391CA6A@Redmond> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> Hello, You are correct. But as the original poster mentioned, he has 1.32 and wanted to connect to a 1.17 server to play the mod. So it can be done. Yes, you can't have 1.17 specified and then connect to a 1.32 server. You can however support all protocals up to 1.32. If you need some kind of proof since everyone on this list seems to want to debate what ppl say, then search google for DXQuake3 and look at it's source code. It's a rewritten directx version of quake using DirectPlay for it's network. It doesn't check for the protocol version and there are no problems on any server version. This would be the same if you were to write a Quake 3 client which uses Rakknet. Well, would be the same for anyone if you know what you are doing. Chris On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Stephan Reiter wrote: > If you try to connect with an old 1.17 client to a new 1.32 server you > will be dropped because the protocol versions don't match. Rest assured that > the Q3 engine only supports a single version of the protocol. The version > number is only transmitted to allow checks if both the client and the server > "speak the same language". > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Christopher Bunting > *To:* quake3 at icculus.org > *Sent:* Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:01 PM > *Subject:* Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > Hello, > > You asked what protocals were supported. They are all supported. What I > mentioned was a suggestion simply because if you are using version 1.32 > source, then you still have support for the 1.17 protocal.. But you won't be > telling the server that unless you specify which version. > > Chris > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Stephan Reiter > wrote: > > > Ah, I think I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that. I was > > refering to Chris' suggestion when I suggested that trying "that" was > > pointless, as in changing PROTOCOL_VERSION and hoping that it works. > > > > Of course Id used the version to distinguish between versions of the > > protocol and give informative error messages when there's a mismatch. That's > > pretty much the standard approach to this sort of problem. > > > > Stephan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "LinuxManMikeC" < > > linuxmanmikec at gmail.com> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:52 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > > > > > Unless he's worked with a Licensed copy of the 1.17 source, Chris has > > > only the SDK to compare to. There is still the rest of the engine > > > where changes could have been made that affect the protocol. One > > > obvious change I could point out is when they released Team Arena. > > > Before that it was bug fixes. > > > > > > Stephan, just letting the changes in the protocol allow a session to > > > blow up is very bad software design. There is no guarantee it will > > > blow up immediately upon encounter of a discrepancy. It would > > > probably keep going for a while with corrupted data and then fail with > > > no explanation, all while ruining the game for everyone else. With > > > the version identifier, you have something to test for. I wouldn't > > > expect id to be incrementing protocol versions without good reason. > > > One reason I can think of (and agree with) for incrementing the > > > version without obvious changes to the protocol is to push critical > > > bug fixes on the users. Users don't often think or care about bug > > > fixes, so make them care. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Stephan Reiter > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What sense would it make for id to change this definition and not > > > > modify any > > > > headers or networking functions? Trying this is pointless in my > > > > opinion ... > > > > Even if it worked for a while, I'm sure that at some point > > > > discrepancies > > > > would crop up and in the best case you would be kicked from the > > > > server. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Christopher Bunting > > > > To: quake3 at icculus.org > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 3:48 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [quake3] Supported protocols > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > What happens if your change PROTOCOL_VERSION in qcommon.h to the > > > > protocal > > > > version that the server supports? Look at the 1.17 source code or > > > > 1.30, it's > > > > all pretty much the same, the numder is all that seems to be > > > > updated. > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Mariusz Przybylski > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Which protocols ioq3 currently supports ? Yesterday i've tried to > > > > > connect > > > > to one of the NoGhost 1.16n servers, and received wrong protocol > > > > error. > > > > > > > > > > Currently NoGhost is 3rd most played q3 mod today, right after > > > > Urban > > > > Terror and CPMA. However it uses protocol version 43 (point release > > > > 1.16n) > > > > thus forbidding ioq3 to connect. > > > > > > > > > > What I thought of is that it would be a very good idea to give a > > > > > support > > > > for older protocols (like 1.16, 1.31 etc.), to make ioq3 client > > > > actually > > > > USEFUL for real gameplay. I don't really know how much work it would > > > > take to > > > > have multiple network codebases, but surely it would pay off, by > > > > gaining > > > > more players' attention, not only developers. And there are at least > > > > half > > > > hundred players on 1.16 platform. > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible to have older protocol(s) supported? And if > > > > yes, > by > > > > what means? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Mario > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > [Attachement] > > > > > > > > > > Protocol version, Point release version > > > > > 68, 1.32 > > > > > 67, 1.31 > > > > > 66, 1.30 > > > > > 66, 1.29h > > > > > 48, 1.27g > > > > > 46, 1.26 > > > > > 45, 1.17 > > > > > 43, 1.16n > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > > > > quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > > > > Mailing list archives: > > > > http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thebenmachine at googlemail.com Sat Apr 19 15:17:24 2008 From: thebenmachine at googlemail.com (Ben Millwood) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:17:24 +0100 Subject: [quake3] New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I know this was posted a couple of weeks ago but I've just tried to compile it now and: - Get the latest version of the LLVM from their Subversion repository, svn > > co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/llvm/trunk llvm > > > The latest llvm no longer contains a llvm/Support/LLVMBuilder.h, which is apparently required by the raytracer I poked in svn log for my llvm checkout and found: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ r49604 | baldrick | 2008-04-13 07:22:09 +0100 (Sun, 13 Apr 2008) | 3 lines Merge LLVMBuilder and FoldingBuilder, calling the result IRBuilder. Patch by Dominic Hamon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ so it seems that just getting HEAD will not result in a successful compilation. Can I ask, then, which revision you (or anyone who successfully compiled the patch) used? I tried 49603, but I don't think this works either. About 49000, and I don't run into problems until later (which I *think* are due to my rapido compilation failing) so that might be okay. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattst88 at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 15:45:54 2008 From: mattst88 at gmail.com (Matt Turner) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:45:54 -0400 Subject: Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? Message-ID: If someone was to implement a VM for another architecture (mips, alpha, sparc), what would be involved? Is there any documentation on this? Can someone give an overview of how the is used in Quake3? Any information welcome. Matt Turner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 18:59:50 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:59:50 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804191559m583aa61dmc312232f26e88dc7@mail.gmail.com> Matt, I try to maintain the SGI MIPS/IRIX port of IOQuake3, and I've actually been looking into getting a VM running for MIPS. As far as I have seen, there isn't any documentation on it. =( A good first step is to learn the VM's instructions and behaviors. I can't find any good documentation on this, so I've been referencing the x86 and interpreted (vm_x86.c and vm_interpreted.c respectively) and basically trying to get an idea of what each instruction is accomplishing. code/qcommon/vm_local.h gives the VM opcodes, but unless you are familiar with assembler mnemonics, you may not be able to make heads or tails of it. Generally, knowing how the VM is used from inside Quake3 will help a lot in debugging too. Next, you need to know the calling convention of your target processor/platform. For example, I use N32 calling convention on MIPS, which means the first eight arguments to a function are passed in %r4-%r11. Stack must be quadword aligned (8-byte). Values are stored as 64-bit values on stack. Return register is %r31. These sorts of things. You'll need to be interfacing the Q3VM with native C code. The compiler assumes that any function being called, including ones with dynamically generated assembly code, follow these rules and have defined behavior, so you have to play ball with those rules. You'll need to write code to emit instructions for your processor type. That's pretty trivial, just get a architecture reference manual and have at it. I have a tiny project called libMIPS that includes a lot of opcodes for MIPS IV processors so I can easily write dynamic assembly generation programs without having to recode the ISA part every time. Other issues you might want to consider is if your platform allows for code from stack/heap to be executed, and how you can fix it so that it can. If you are generating instructions for a processor, can older processors still execute it? For example, MIPS III doesn't include all of the instructions of MIPS IV, so if I want any SGI machines that have MIPS III compatible processors to run Q3, I need to not generate MIPS IV ones. That sort of thing. Otherwise, I suggest you spend a lot of time just running through those two files and try to understand its behavior. I can't say I've spent a lot of time on it, but I have some general ideas of how it works. If you are working on a MIPS one, then I wouldn't mind working with you. Patrick Baggett Other than that, I'd suggest that you On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Matt Turner wrote: > If someone was to implement a VM for another architecture (mips, alpha, > sparc), what would be involved? Is there any documentation on this? Can > someone give an overview of how the is used in Quake3? Any information > welcome. > > Matt Turner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michel at tungstengraphics.com Sun Apr 20 03:07:52 2008 From: michel at tungstengraphics.com (Michel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E4nzer?=) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:07:52 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1208675273.5632.40.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> On Sat, 2008-04-19 at 15:45 -0400, Matt Turner wrote: > If someone was to implement a VM for another architecture (mips, > alpha, sparc), what would be involved? I wonder if anyone has considered using LLVM for the JIT? It looks like that should cover at least alpha and sparc from the above, and also help with powerpc. -- Earthling Michel D?nzer | http://tungstengraphics.com Libre software enthusiast | Debian, X and DRI developer From pay7n at o2.pl Sun Apr 20 04:14:50 2008 From: pay7n at o2.pl (Mariusz Przybylski) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:14:50 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> References: <4808D617.4010004@o2.pl> <7a44ba370804181848w4203fe35oc4bb8aa03e697289@mail.gmail.com> <4561ec380804190752v6e6fa078v4df7f22a4887ead9@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804191001s62e33bbayed73e86c8870907@mail.gmail.com> <1F7F65FDFE5645349C2B2E8A4391CA6A@Redmond> <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> As Chris wrote, I just want to play on older protocol via ioq3. You may call it backward compatibility. In my opinion - because ioq3 doesn't offer any *point releases* or that kind of thing - it should be done to maintain real usability and to realize one of ioq3's main goals: "to have the perfect version of the engine for playing Quake 3: Arena, Team Arena, and all popular mods." Let's be honest, with only 1.32 protocol supported and no PB you may play with your brother on your LAN at most.. No one's willing to disable punkbuster on the server just for you.. ;) Christopher Bunting pisze: > Hello, > > You are correct. But as the original poster mentioned, he has 1.32 and > wanted to connect to a 1.17 server to play the mod. From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 04:51:26 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:51:26 +0200 Subject: [quake3] New Raytracing Patch II In-Reply-To: References: <135ebb010804010128v4e989500od886e0c7206cb662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <135ebb010804200151g59b5618t36d55774b54af08b@mail.gmail.com> To be honest I don't know what revision I used because I just checked out the head. Maybe you can find out what version was current when I released the patch through their log? Stephan 2008/4/19, Ben Millwood : > > Hi, I know this was posted a couple of weeks ago but I've just tried to > compile it now and: > > - Get the latest version of the LLVM from their Subversion repository, svn > > > co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/llvm/trunk llvm > > > > > > The latest llvm no longer contains a llvm/Support/LLVMBuilder.h, which is > apparently required by the raytracer > I poked in svn log for my llvm checkout and found: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > r49604 | baldrick | 2008-04-13 07:22:09 +0100 (Sun, 13 Apr 2008) | 3 lines > > Merge LLVMBuilder and FoldingBuilder, calling > the result IRBuilder. Patch by Dominic Hamon. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > so it seems that just getting HEAD will not result in a successful > compilation. > > Can I ask, then, which revision you (or anyone who successfully compiled > the patch) used? I tried 49603, but I don't think this works either. About > 49000, and I don't run into problems until later (which I *think* are due to > my rapido compilation failing) so that might be okay. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bnoordhuis at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 05:13:03 2008 From: bnoordhuis at gmail.com (Ben Noordhuis) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:13:03 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? In-Reply-To: <1208675273.5632.40.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> References: <1208675273.5632.40.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> Message-ID: <54885e060804200213j5c944144sb70db356f92e66c9@mail.gmail.com> Matt, does this help? http://icculus.org/~phaethon/q3mc/q3vm_specs.html From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sun Apr 20 06:25:38 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:25:38 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> Message-ID: <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Sonntag, 20. April 2008, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > As Chris wrote, I just want to play on older protocol via ioq3. You > may call it backward compatibility. In my opinion - because ioq3 doesn't > offer any *point releases* or that kind of thing - it should be done to > maintain real usability and to realize one of ioq3's main goals: [...] Don't believe what that Bunting guy says, because he is clueless. Protocol 1.32 vs. 1.16 or 1.17 are inherently incompatible. 1.32 does use huffman encoding to compress data, 1.17 uses a different algorithm to do some basic compression. I have written the EliteForce patch which lets you connect to original EliteForce servers. These use that protocol version of about the 1.17 point release, and I had to write support for it. If you're interested, you can look at that stuff and try to adapt it so it works with the older quake3 versions. However, there are some hurdles to overcome: There might still be differences in the two protocols regarding the order in which the data fields are sent. If, let's say, the message part for shooting a weapon is 4 bits long, for jumping 6 bits long, and the engine expects the jumping message but for real the shoot command was sent, it will still read only the 4 bits thinking it's the shooting message, so all subsequent bits are shifted and it just goes to hell. To make one thing crystal clear: An older protocol version than the one of 1.32 is not and will never be supported by official ioquake3. You can have this as separate patch if you get it to work, but right now none of the developers here are interested in doing this for you. If you want it, do it yourself. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From pay7n at o2.pl Sun Apr 20 07:03:06 2008 From: pay7n at o2.pl (Mariusz Przybylski) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:03:06 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <480B22EA.4070506@o2.pl> Thilo Schulz pisze: > To make one thing crystal clear: An older protocol version than the one of > 1.32 is not and will never be supported by official ioquake3. Going that way you are effectively cutting the second of two ways in which ioq3 can be useful for actual Q3A gaming. Those two ways are: - develop multi-protocol support (at least most popular 1.16n) or - implement punkbuster to allow playing on 95% of 1.32 servers Above two protocols are the most popular ones. I know punkbuster is closed-source proprietary software, so 2nd way is a dead-end. How about the first one? Reverse-engineer protocol 1.16 (which shouldn't be that hard, cause packets aren't encrypted or compressed in any way) and implement, by receiving server's proto version and switching to matching network packets' parser on the fly. Or something like that :) Thilo said this way is also out of interest. So may I ask you then, is this project still a Q3A client or is it just a codebase for developing standalone games ? You should really take care of ioq3 wiki and make there some roadmap or project goals cause I'm missing your point :> From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sun Apr 20 07:43:31 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:43:31 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <480B22EA.4070506@o2.pl> References: <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <480B22EA.4070506@o2.pl> Message-ID: <200804201343.34362.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Sonntag, 20. April 2008, Mariusz Przybylski wrote: > How about the first one? Reverse-engineer protocol 1.16 (which shouldn't > be that hard, cause packets aren't encrypted or compressed in any way) > and implement, by receiving server's proto version and switching to > matching network packets' parser on the fly. Or something like that :) And how exactly would supporting the 1.16 protocol make it possible to play on these servers? You're forgetting that to run that version of a mod on these servers, to stay pure you must use the original files so you'd not only need to change the protocol but effectively reverse all changes made to the cgame/ui/game API made to quake3 since 1.16! It took me about half a year to do this for Elite Force, and the changes are very extensive. No way is this finding its way into official ioquake3. Dead-end, as you said so spot on. > Thilo said this way is also out of interest. So may I ask you then, is > this project still a Q3A client or is it just a codebase for developing > standalone games ? Yes, it is still a q3a client, but stating as project goal to support medieval versions is just silly. If you want to have it, you are free to work on a separate patch. You can also look at my EliteForce patch as it contains some info on how things might have been handled in older quake3. I'm also willing to answer questions if you run into trouble. Keep in mind that we are maintaining ioquake3 voluntarily, so much of what goes into ioquake3 is what we *personally* want to see go into it, not what other people who don't code think should go into it. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From linuxmanmikec at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 07:48:51 2008 From: linuxmanmikec at gmail.com (LinuxManMikeC) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:48:51 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <480B22EA.4070506@o2.pl> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <480B22EA.4070506@o2.pl> Message-ID: <4561ec380804200448j1b24d27ah783540e928268a41@mail.gmail.com> > Going that way you are effectively cutting the second of two ways in which > ioq3 can be useful for actual Q3A gaming. > Those two ways are: > - develop multi-protocol support (at least most popular 1.16n) > or > - implement punkbuster to allow playing on 95% of 1.32 servers > Id Software never cared about multi-protocol compatibility. And if you want punkbuster, quit being cheap, buy a copy of Q3. > > Above two protocols are the most popular ones. I know punkbuster is > closed-source proprietary software, so 2nd way is a dead-end. > Punkbuster has nothing to do with protocols. > How about the first one? Reverse-engineer protocol 1.16 (which shouldn't be > that hard, cause packets aren't encrypted or compressed in any way) and > implement, by receiving server's proto version and switching to matching > network packets' parser on the fly. Or something like that :) > Weren't you paying attention? Thilo just said there is compression. He also said it was really hard to reverse engineer! > Thilo said this way is also out of interest. So may I ask you then, is this > project still a Q3A client or is it just a codebase for developing > standalone games ? > It was also never of interest to id Software. And that is the whole point of this project from what I understand, continue where id Software left off. > You should really take care of ioq3 wiki and make there some roadmap or > project goals cause I'm missing your point :> > Yes, you are missing the point. It is up to the mod developer to update their mod and I believe someone mentioned there was talk of this in their forum. So until then, be patient, go outside, get some exercise, breath some fresh air, and get some sunshine kid. Mike From chewy509 at lycos.com Sat Apr 19 19:19:35 2008 From: chewy509 at lycos.com (darran kartaschew) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE][quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? Message-ID: <20080419191935.HM.00000000000024a@chewy509.bos-mail-wwl8.lycos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattst88 at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 13:13:21 2008 From: mattst88 at gmail.com (Matt Turner) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:13:21 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? In-Reply-To: <54885e060804200213j5c944144sb70db356f92e66c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1208675273.5632.40.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> <54885e060804200213j5c944144sb70db356f92e66c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 5:13 AM, Ben Noordhuis wrote: > Matt, does this help? http://icculus.org/~phaethon/q3mc/q3vm_specs.html > > That looks excellent. Thanks! I certainly like the idea of LLVM though. I assume that by implementing the VM using LLVM, we would remove the need for the existing x86[-64] and PPC VMs and therefore would provide a single common code path. Anyone interested in tackling this? Matt Turner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephan.reiter at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 13:27:48 2008 From: stephan.reiter at gmail.com (Stephan Reiter) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:27:48 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? In-Reply-To: References: <1208675273.5632.40.camel@thor.sulgenrain.local> <54885e060804200213j5c944144sb70db356f92e66c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96A5C7221B0B4613BE855ADF523C962A@Redmond> I'm using the LLVM in my raytracing patch, which should provide for a good starting point for anyone willing to work on this. Stephan ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Turner To: quake3 at icculus.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [quake3] Implementing VMs for other architectures: what's involved? On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 5:13 AM, Ben Noordhuis wrote: Matt, does this help? http://icculus.org/~phaethon/q3mc/q3vm_specs.html That looks excellent. Thanks! I certainly like the idea of LLVM though. I assume that by implementing the VM using LLVM, we would remove the need for the existing x86[-64] and PPC VMs and therefore would provide a single common code path. Anyone interested in tackling this? Matt Turner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sun Apr 20 17:16:32 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:16:32 +0200 Subject: Ioquake3 stereo view v2 Message-ID: <200804202316.35543.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hello, as the last patch was an early version quickly hacked together, the stereoscopic projection was not done correctly yet. The method first used to do this inherently resulted in a negative parallax which means that all rendered objects seemed to be in front of the screen plane, with points going towards infinity reaching the screen plane. However, over the weekend I did the maths and modified the GL projection matrix such that objects can appear to be in front of the screen as well as behind it. You can see the results here (all new pictures as the old ones are obsolete): http://thilo.tjps.eu/bilder/screenshots/quake3/ And here is the diff again to make it happen: http://thilo.tjps.eu/download/patches/ioquake3-rev1323_anaglyph_v2.diff Following values will now affect the stereoscopic effect: r_anaglyphMode - set this to one to get anaglyph stereoscopic rendering r_stereoEnabled - set this to one to get in theory stereoscopic rendering for shutter glasses. However, I haven't tested this as I don't have the hardware. There probably needs to be done some initialization stuff to tell OpenGL it's rendered stereoscopically.. r_zProj - set the distance of the observing camera to the projection plane, in quake3 standard units. Objects at the distance of the projection plane will appear to be sitting directly "on" the screen as parallax is zero there. r_stereoSeparation - set the separation of the eyes in units. Note, the nearer the projection plane to the camera, the more this will result in shifted picture, so if you change r_zProj value, you may need to change this one, too. Have fun! -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 00:52:10 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:52:10 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> > > > Don't believe what that Bunting guy says, because he is clueless. Protocol > 1.32 vs. 1.16 or 1.17 are inherently incompatible. How do you figure? I've not only worked on Q3 projects. I spent over a year working on the Antrix emulator as well as writing my own additions to be one of the first World or Warcraft Emulators to support The Burning Crusade. http://code.google.com/p/angelemu/ Adding protocol support for a game that IS NOT open source is not easy. But it has been proven that it can be done. I used Wireshark http://www.wireshark.org/ 90% of the time and a custom sql packet anyalizer to gather needed data in order to write support for TBC. Quake 3 doesn't use a database which makes it that much easier to support other protocals. Just because it may not be easy does not mean it can't be done. I myself I played on older q3 servers with different protocals and I never had a problem. I know nothing about the mod that was mentioned but figured it takes 5 minutes or less to recompile ioQuake3 to see if he could connect to the mod. Again, I've said before that what I wrote was just a suggestion. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincent at cojot.name Mon Apr 21 03:51:47 2008 From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:51:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [quake3] [RE][quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? In-Reply-To: <20080419191935.HM.00000000000024a@chewy509.bos-mail-wwl8.lycos.com> References: <20080419191935.HM.00000000000024a@chewy509.bos-mail-wwl8.lycos.com> Message-ID: Hi Darran, Thanks for the report. It's great to hear. About the 'gmkdir' issue, I think you will only get 'gmkdir' if you install the GNU SFW fileutils package which installs under /usr/sfw and gives you all GNU comands prefixed by 'g' (gtar, grm, gcp, etc..). I'm not using SXDE, just plain Solaris 10 (Update 4, aka 08/07). That's just a quick hack anyway so I'll try to see what I can do to fix it in a more 'portable' manner. As for the GLX/SDL issue, I don't think this used to happen with ioquake3 on Solaris until linux_glimp.c was merged with sdl_glimp.c, thus making SDL the only way to gain access to GLX graphics. I hadn't even noticed that consequence. Before that, ioq3 only used SDL for sound. IMHO, SUN will never provide a libSDL that includes GLX routines because GLX is optional and vendor-provided on x86 (not on SPARC anymore, though). I think the only way to solve that is that I could provide a statically linked inside the ioquake3 binary, just like what I did for ioquake2 (http://www.icculus.org/quake2). How would that be? Many thanks again for the report, Vincent On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, darran kartaschew wrote: > Hi Guys, > > This topic got me interested in building the latest SVN release for Solaris x86. > > Just like to report that svn 1323 builds without major problems out-of-the-box on Solaris SXDE 01/08 for x86. (aka Solaris 11). > > I encounter 2 problems (1 major, 1 minor) during the build process and on the attempt to run ioQuake3. > > The first problem I encountered with the build was the Makefile uses "gmkdir" which no longer exists with SXDE/SXCE/OpenSolaris. A quick rename to > "mkdir" and it all works. (This is extremely minor IMO). > > The second problem (which has nothing to do with ioQuake3), is that the default libDSL that comes bundled with OpenSolaris/SXCE/SXDE deos NOT have > OpenGL enabled. Therefore if attempting to start ioQuake3 with the default bundled libSDL, the ioQuake3 executable reports "unable to obtain a > visual". This is easily solved by rebuilding libSDL yourself with OpenGL enabled. > > The other great thing is, using libSDL to handle the gfx Fullscreen now works on Solaris! (The svn995 Solaris pkg on the website, fullscreen > doesn't work). > > Darran > > PS. Hardware is dual Opteron 242, Tyan K8W motherboard, 2GB RAM, 10K SCSI RAID, GeForce FX5500 AGP, and I get around 90-130fps @ 1680x1050. From erik at insectenboek.nl Mon Apr 21 07:17:55 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:17:55 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> On 17-4-2008 22:17, Tim Angus wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:40:22 +0200 Erik wrote: >> ioUrT and UrT are independent works too. UrT is based on the Q3-sdk. >> ioUrT is based on ioquake3. > > If they were distributed separately, these sentences would be true. > >> But ioUrT and UrT were definatly developed separately from each >> other, by different people, working of different code bases. > > ...and by combining the two through code and distribution you create a > single product. Distributing 2 separate products together does not make it a single product. See the 'aggregation' posts for more details. ioUrbanTerror and Urban Terror are SEPARATE products, distributed together in an aggregation. And they are not combined through code, cause they are based on separate code-bases. Yes, these 2 code-bases happen to be pretty simular, but they remain 2 separate code-bases. And ioUrbanTerror was STRICTLY based on the ioquake3 code-base and Urban Terror STRICTLY on the Q3A code-base. By different people even, totally separate from eachother. They do work nicely together, but that just happens to be the case... > >> I assume you missed the last paragraph of my initial message: > > No I didn't. In fact this is the part that confuses me the most. You > seem to be all for releasing the UrT source yet you were instrumental > in preventing it by firstly creating ioUrT and secondly through > convincing yourself and others that the licensing is not a problem. And > now you continue to do so /despite/ claiming not to care and /despite/ > not being involved with UrT's development any longer. This seems like a > bit of a contradiction to me. Just because I am all for releasing the UrT source does not mean I will accept un-truth about the legality. Even when I don't actually care about it. Un-truth just hurts my eyes :) Maybe contradictional to you, not to me. Anyway, I will now give you last word and I will part this discussion, unless new insights are introduced, instead of these same ones over and over again. From tim at ngus.net Mon Apr 21 07:45:49 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:45:49 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:17:55 +0200 Erik wrote: > Distributing 2 separate products together does not make it a single > product. See the 'aggregation' posts for more details. ioUrbanTerror > and Urban Terror are SEPARATE products, distributed together in an > aggregation. Then you haven't understood aggregation. > Just because I am all for releasing the UrT source does not mean I > will accept un-truth about the legality. Even when I don't actually > care about it. Un-truth just hurts my eyes :) Maybe contradictional > to you, not to me. The contradictary part is your actions in bringing ioUrT into existence being the diametric opposite that you expect from someone in favour of having the UrT source released. > Anyway, I will now give you last word Discombobulate. From monk at rq3.com Mon Apr 21 14:28:29 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:28:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:17:55 +0200 Erik wrote: >> Distributing 2 separate products together does not make it a single >> product. See the 'aggregation' posts for more details. ioUrbanTerror >> and Urban Terror are SEPARATE products, distributed together in an >> aggregation. > > Then you haven't understood aggregation. Nor have I, I think: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#MereAggregation From: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html The text right above section 3 (last part of 2c?) and the FAQ link talks about mere aggregation and defines mere aggregation to be separate from combining two modules into one program. The license and the FAQ does not get into any more detail about different types of "aggregation" besides what I linked to. Perhaps you've got a mistaken understanding of aggregation as defined in GPL 2.0? Any links to clarify would be handy. Please, though, don't point to any GPL 3.0 information as that doesn't apply to the Q3 GPL license, I think. That's why I'm specifically digging through the gpl-2.0 docs instead of the generic GPL docs on the gnu.org site. I also don't see anything specific about "intent" as you had brought up earlier, though I admit I might have missed it. Monk. From monk at rq3.com Mon Apr 21 14:33:15 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59024.63.150.173.150.1208802795.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > Quake 3 doesn't use a database which makes it that much easier to support > other protocals. Just because it may not be easy does not mean it can't be > done. I myself I played on older q3 servers with different protocals and I > never had a problem. I know nothing about the mod that was mentioned but > figured it takes 5 minutes or less to recompile ioQuake3 to see if he > could > connect to the mod. Again, I've said before that what I wrote was just a > suggestion. Why not do a proof of concept patch? Even if it were only offered as an optional patch on the ioq3 site, perhaps the large(?) community of 1.16n players would get great use out of it. Though I'm not sure that they'd care? Even if ioq3 worked with 1.16n, it wouldn't have PunkBuster support, which was a deal-breaker for the guy who mentioned it. Or was he saying that it'd need PB if they finished porting the mod to 1.32? You'd think that any servers that cater to 1.16n players wouldn't mind running 1.32 servers with PB disabled anyway... Monk. From zachary at ioquake.org Mon Apr 21 15:12:47 2008 From: zachary at ioquake.org (Zachary J. Slater) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:12:47 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <59024.63.150.173.150.1208802795.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> <59024.63.150.173.150.1208802795.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <4de771c30804211212o39d73bedsbd3097d5055143d8@mail.gmail.com> Let me make this as clear as possible: Chris Bunting is either misinformed, a troll, or both. I do not care to support this, nor will I ever support ideas that come directly out of this. Old protocols aren't easily supportable, and are essentially a waste of effort at this point. If someone wants to make a patch, and submit it to bugzilla, for a standard, easy method of swapping protocols at runtime, then it MIGHT be good enough for the patches page. I don't suspect there are any good natured reasons for undertaking this... dive into history. I suspect the only reason to support this is troll trying to waste our efforts, or someone who wants to run cheats or some crap that only runs with older protocols. The only eboner I get for this is with working on Dreamcast support. However, even that is fleeting, I don't think I have a legitimate copy of Q3 DC but I'll have to check my collection first. If I recall correctly, that was a 1.17 release right after some "pro" maps were added to the game. So that is pretty much it for my fondness of that era. On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:33 AM, wrote: > Why not do a proof of concept patch? Even if it were only offered as an > optional patch on the ioq3 site, perhaps the large(?) community of 1.16n > players would get great use out of it. > > Though I'm not sure that they'd care? Even if ioq3 worked with 1.16n, it > wouldn't have PunkBuster support, which was a deal-breaker for the guy who > mentioned it. Or was he saying that it'd need PB if they finished porting > the mod to 1.32? You'd think that any servers that cater to 1.16n players > wouldn't mind running 1.32 servers with PB disabled anyway... > > Monk. > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > From monk at rq3.com Mon Apr 21 18:08:36 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <4de771c30804211212o39d73bedsbd3097d5055143d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> <59024.63.150.173.150.1208802795.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <4de771c30804211212o39d73bedsbd3097d5055143d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59067.63.150.173.150.1208815716.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > The only eboner I get for this is with working on Dreamcast support. > However, even that is fleeting, I don't think I have a legitimate copy > of Q3 DC but I'll have to check my collection first. What we need to do is sucker someone into porting ioq3 to the DC! Then no need to support any older 1.16n. Though I don't know what is available on the DC... last I looked there was some half-done SDL implementation for either NetBSD or LinuxDC or something. Oh, hey, maybe it's all sorted out now: http://chui.dcemu.co.uk/sdl.html Anyway, I assume that'll be done around the same time someone adds in 4-player split screen. ;) Monk. From only_mortal at mac.com Mon Apr 21 17:56:28 2008 From: only_mortal at mac.com (Mike Davis) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:56:28 +0200 Subject: iPhone Message-ID: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> Just a quick question, as I don't tend to follow the threads in this mailing list too frequently, but has anyone looked at getting q3 to compile on Xcode with the iPhone sdk? I write this as I downloaded the sdk the other day *and* I'm a professional mac programmer doing objective-c and C++. Infact, you have likely run my code if you use an adobe, macromedia, tomtom or IBM (viavoice) application. Credentials aside, I'm going to be doing some iphone development and I was thinking of getting q3 up and the old q3 browser I wrote some years ago, called only mortal, as tools to familiarise myself with the iPhone. Of course I'd much rather use the apple toolchain in preference to the unofficial one though I know from compiling q3 on the apple intel reference machine I had that make is used. This might mean that it's easier with the unofficial toolchain though I doubt it would make much difference. I was also thinking I'd be prepared to supply an "official" binary via the iTunes store (for free) as I will get the $99 subscription anyway for my commercial ventures. Some thoughts would be appreciated. Mike --- Sent from my iPhone From monk at rq3.com Mon Apr 21 20:19:53 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:19:53 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] iPhone In-Reply-To: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> References: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> Message-ID: <57964.63.150.173.150.1208823593.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > Just a quick question, as I don't tend to follow the threads in this > mailing list too frequently, but has anyone looked at getting q3 to > compile on Xcode with the iPhone sdk? Well, there has been some work done. If you still have the threads saved and want to look them up a bit, here's the subject names and dates and relevent content, from a quick looksee: ---------------- [quake3] ioquake3 on the iPod Touch Sun, April 6, 2008 3:55 am Thought you guys may be interested in seeing this: http://hermitworks.blogspot.com/2008/04/quake-3-itouch.html ---------------- Re: [quake3] Greetings From: "Cameron Tofer" Mon, April 7, 2008 9:58 pm Hey there, we're preparing to submit a bunch of patches from our Space Trader fork. some include: - skeleton models + tool + exporter - deluxe mapping - utf suport + font tool plus a bunch of fixes. we're trying to make them as clean as possible, we won't be submitting everything as we want to keep ioq3 as a clean base and not a dump for everyone's favorite features. These should be coming as soon as we get more iTouch work done. ... From zachary at ioquake.org Mon Apr 21 21:50:16 2008 From: zachary at ioquake.org (Zachary J. Slater) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:50:16 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Supported protocols In-Reply-To: <59067.63.150.173.150.1208815716.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <7a44ba370804191124j6d762a69i637f63d6a3027727@mail.gmail.com> <480AFB7A.4040405@o2.pl> <200804201225.41841.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <7a44ba370804202152y543ae254l28f3648dac8f81d5@mail.gmail.com> <59024.63.150.173.150.1208802795.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <4de771c30804211212o39d73bedsbd3097d5055143d8@mail.gmail.com> <59067.63.150.173.150.1208815716.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <4de771c30804211850y249c228ejdd59ae674ced86f9@mail.gmail.com> That is correct, in 2029 when war is beginning. On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:08 PM, wrote: > > The only eboner I get for this is with working on Dreamcast support. > > However, even that is fleeting, I don't think I have a legitimate copy > > of Q3 DC but I'll have to check my collection first. > > What we need to do is sucker someone into porting ioq3 to the DC! Then no > need to support any older 1.16n. Though I don't know what is available on > the DC... last I looked there was some half-done SDL implementation for > either NetBSD or LinuxDC or something. > > Oh, hey, maybe it's all sorted out now: > > http://chui.dcemu.co.uk/sdl.html > > Anyway, I assume that'll be done around the same time someone adds in > 4-player split screen. ;) > > > > Monk. > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > From zachary at ioquake.org Mon Apr 21 21:52:31 2008 From: zachary at ioquake.org (Zachary J. Slater) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:52:31 -0700 Subject: [quake3] iPhone In-Reply-To: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> References: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> Message-ID: <4de771c30804211852j40442e80o4caceb7bc34fa757@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, I think the official apple SDK might be incompatible with ioquake3's GPLv2 license. So your best bet for right now is the jailbroken iphone/ipod touch, the only legitimate dev platform. From chewy509 at lycos.com Tue Apr 22 05:05:40 2008 From: chewy509 at lycos.com (darran kartaschew) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [quake3] [RE][quake3] How far can SGI MIPS, Sun SPARC, and LinuxPPC go? Message-ID: <20080422050540.HM.00000000000025s@chewy509.bos-mail-wwl8.lycos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjisaac at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 07:34:15 2008 From: rjisaac at gmail.com (Robert Isaac) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:34:15 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <3b47d0520804220434n841d9b1jf0246d5c3de13af2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Tim Angus wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:17:55 +0200 Erik wrote: > > Distributing 2 separate products together does not make it a single > > product. See the 'aggregation' posts for more details. ioUrbanTerror > > and Urban Terror are SEPARATE products, distributed together in an > > aggregation. > > Then you haven't understood aggregation. > Then maybe you should explain it and while you are at it explain why it is acceptable to distribute license non-compatible assets in the same zip file but not vms. From tim at ngus.net Tue Apr 22 07:47:56 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:47:56 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:28:29 -0600 (MDT) monk at rq3.com wrote: > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#MereAggregation > > From: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html > > The text right above section 3 (last part of 2c?) and the FAQ link > talks about mere aggregation and defines mere aggregation to be > separate from combining two modules into one program. > > The license and the FAQ does not get into any more detail about > different types of "aggregation" besides what I linked to. > > Perhaps you've got a mistaken understanding of aggregation as defined > in GPL 2.0? From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Tue Apr 22 08:32:34 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:34 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <3b47d0520804220434n841d9b1jf0246d5c3de13af2@mail.gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <3b47d0520804220434n841d9b1jf0246d5c3de13af2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Dienstag, 22. April 2008, Robert Isaac wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 7:45 AM, Tim Angus wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:17:55 +0200 Erik wrote: > > > Distributing 2 separate products together does not make it a single > > > product. See the 'aggregation' posts for more details. ioUrbanTerror > > > and Urban Terror are SEPARATE products, distributed together in an > > > aggregation. > > > > Then you haven't understood aggregation. > > Then maybe you should explain it "for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA" Let alone the fact that ioUrT exists for download on the official urbanterror.net page and is advertised on the official web page for running with UrT is illegal. Strictly speaking, they maybe wouldn't even be allowed to reference officially to ioquake3 as being capable to run the urban terror mod. > and while you are at it explain why > it is acceptable to distribute license non-compatible assets in the > same zip file but not vms. The GPL only covers code, not game assets. And that is what I know Mr. Stallman replied in response to a question about whether you can make money off games at all if everything is open source, on some keynote, because I was physically there. Saying the game is "in theory" able to run other modifications is just hypocritical. Timbo is right insofar, that setting the standard BASEGAME to your own game directory while keep talking about that "separate products" crap pretty much shows the intention this whole thing started off with: Enable players without the original quake3 and cd key to play while not wanting to fulfil the GPL. Alas, the rights to the original mod code lies with id of course. Still, it is very cheap of the Urban Terror developers to resort to this phrasemongering bullshit to reap the benefits of open development work we do for ioquake3 while at the same time keeping their sources closed out of fear someone might fork or change the gameplay in a way they don't want. Timbo is rightly angry, and all of ioquake3's main developers share these sentiments. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From linuxmanmikec at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 09:36:50 2008 From: linuxmanmikec at gmail.com (LinuxManMikeC) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:36:50 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <3b47d0520804220434n841d9b1jf0246d5c3de13af2@mail.gmail.com> <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <4561ec380804220636p86b4e6bk4eeb49c89e44fcc4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Thilo Schulz wrote: > > Alas, the rights to the original mod code lies with id of course. Still, it is > very cheap of the Urban Terror developers to resort to this phrasemongering > bullshit to reap the benefits of open development work we do for ioquake3 > while at the same time keeping their sources closed out of fear someone might > fork or change the gameplay in a way they don't want. Timbo is rightly angry, > and all of ioquake3's main developers share these sentiments. > As I understand the GPL, the contributors to ioQ3 have the rights to the changes that were made since the original release by id Software. So you should have leverage and the right to make them release their code or cease using the ioQ3 fork as they have been. I don't see how any supposed special permission by id could be forced onto the changes provided by the ioQ3 engine. It should only apply to id's original release, beyond that id loses any ability to restrict the code. Its GPL and thats final. Now figuring out how to deal with the Q3 SDK license is another matter and having your own blessing from id's legal department would be helpful should you choose to do something about UrT. Anyway, I have no law degrees to back up this advice, so whatever. Mike From erik at insectenboek.nl Tue Apr 22 10:30:23 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:30:23 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <3b47d0520804220434n841d9b1jf0246d5c3de13af2@mail.gmail.com> <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <480DF67F.4080404@insectenboek.nl> On 22-4-2008 14:32, Thilo Schulz wrote: > "for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III > ARENA" > > Let alone the fact that ioUrT exists for download on the official > urbanterror.net page and is advertised on the official web page for running > with UrT is illegal. Strictly speaking, they maybe wouldn't even be allowed > to reference officially to ioquake3 as being capable to run the urban terror > mod. Again: 1: What you're mentioning here is about the sdk license and therefor is between IDsoftware and the UrT team (FrozenSand) alone, you have NOTHING to do with this. FrozenSand claims IDsofware gave them the okay on this even. Wether you chose to believe that or not, it's between ID and FS, so very very moot point. 2: You omitted the word "create" from the quote from the sdk. So it actually is: "CREATE for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA", not just "for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA". Very important difference! The mod was indeed CREATED for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA, yet it also HAPPENS to run on other engines. Anyway, still a moot point, since it's between ID and FS only anyway. > Saying the game is "in theory" able to run other modifications is just > hypocritical. Timbo is right insofar, that setting the standard BASEGAME to > your own game directory while keep talking about that "separate products" > crap pretty much shows the intention this whole thing started off with: > Enable players without the original quake3 and cd key to play while not > wanting to fulfil the GPL. Now you're talking about GPL, something which you would have a right to complain about. So this is the only relevant part of the discussion. But in my opinion, they (ioUrbanTerror and Urban Terror) are separate products, based on separate code-bases, made by separate people. They are fulfilling the GPL by having the code for ioUrbanTerror (which is licensed under the GPL) available for the public. They are not making the Urban Terror (licensed under the sdk) code available for public, since the sdk does not require it. So, legally fine. > Alas, the rights to the original mod code lies with id of course. Still, it is > very cheap of the Urban Terror developers to resort to this phrasemongering > bullshit to reap the benefits of open development work we do for ioquake3 > while at the same time keeping their sources closed out of fear someone might > fork or change the gameplay in a way they don't want. Timbo is rightly angry, > and all of ioquake3's main developers share these sentiments. I can understand these sentiments and I now regret that I helped in causing them. They should GPL the Urban Terror code (not for legal, but other reasons) :) They are benefitting (player-number-wise, not financially of course) from gpl, but not giving back. It may be time for me to start a topic about this on their forums. Give me some time, I'll cook something up. Now something that may seem as an off-topic rant, but I'm letting you guys know who you will probably meet when you ever try to contact Frozen Sand... :) Frozen Sand's Project Coordinator/Public Relations-guy (Oswald) somtimes even crosses the legal line. You can't go and call ioUrbanTerror/UrbanTerror separate products for legallity-sake and then calling it a single stand-alone product for PR-sake, Oswald! Here's a (deleted after complaints by me) quote from Oswald's blog: "now FREE, STAND ALONE GAME...suck that you GPL weenies!". He lacks respect for many things, this is just one of them. Here's another example the way: http://home.isp.studenten.net/algemeen/osh8.jpg Oswald almost completely left the Urban Terror team after version 3.7, not fulfilling any of his PR or Coordinating (or any other) duties. He was very inactive and didn't contribute anything to either 4.0 or 4.1. But when these versions made playernumbers skyrocket from 200 playing-at-a-time on a good night to 1250 playing-at-a-time on a good night, he suddenly came back and made very sure he secured his 'front-man' position for Urban Terror again. Anyway, he has 0 actual skills, has no knowledge of coding/licensing at all and always is 'too busy' to take care of important things in a tidy and timely fashion (look at all the dead download links on the urbanterror.net download page for example). However, he does make sure he has all the key 'front-man' positions (official contact/forumadmin/siteadmin/ircadmin/domain-owner/moddbadmin etc. etc.) in Frozen Sand. He lacks time/competence and knowledge. Deadly combo for a front-man. From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Tue Apr 22 12:02:09 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:02:09 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <480DF67F.4080404@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <200804221432.37739.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <480DF67F.4080404@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <200804221802.12076.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Dienstag, 22. April 2008, Erik K. wrote: > On 22-4-2008 14:32, Thilo Schulz wrote: > 1: What you're mentioning here is about the sdk license and therefor is > between IDsoftware and the UrT team (FrozenSand) alone, you have NOTHING > to do with this. I know this and I even said that in my last post. Why repeat it? > 2: You omitted the word "create" from the quote from the sdk. So it > actually is: "CREATE for operation only with the full version of the > software game QUAKE III ARENA", not just "for operation only with the > full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA". Very important > difference! The mod was indeed CREATED for operation only with the full > version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA, yet it also HAPPENS to run > on other engines. Anyway, still a moot point, since it's between ID and > FS only anyway. Yes you're right, there's a difference, but it's not going to make it any better. This is what is written: "ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to distribute copies of the Software free of charge for non-commercial purposes by electronic means only and the non-exclusive and limited right to use the Software to create your own modifications (the ?New Creations?) for operation only with the full version of the software game QUAKE III ARENA" They say: "We give you the right to create mods that are _only_ for operation with the full version of Q3A", not "we give you the right to create mods that are for operation only with the full version of q3a arena but if another engine happens to be able to run the code, so you don't need to own the full game, that's fine with us". Technically speaking, any user running ioUrt and playing urt with it would have to own the full quake3 version or would play unlawfully, since these QVMs are per licence "for operation only with the full version of quake3". Yes, I know that you claim id said it was fine. And so this really is not our business, but you say you know that this bundling would remove the legal issues around this side of the problem, which simply is not true. > Now you're talking about GPL, something which you would have a right to > complain about. So this is the only relevant part of the discussion. But > in my opinion, they (ioUrbanTerror and Urban Terror) are separate > products, based on separate code-bases, made by separate people. They > are fulfilling the GPL by having the code for ioUrbanTerror (which is > licensed under the GPL) available for the public. They are not making > the Urban Terror (licensed under the sdk) code available for public, > since the sdk does not require it. So, legally fine. That is another legal grey area, and Timbo is right with the notion that the code is actually not interpreted most of the time but indeed runs natively within the address space of the engine, which violates the GPL. And like I said, he is also right with the very obvious primary intention of running ioUrT with Urban Terror. This bundling sounds to me like a disclaimer to an mp3 website: "you must buy the CD for these songs before you download these or you are violating the law!". That wouldn't hold up one second in front of a court. This is an extreme analogy, and the bundling trick may indeed work in front of a court, I don't know. But don't pretend to *know* this is legal, because before this has not been fought out in front of a court you can never be certain. Don't worry, I'm not about to sue you or anyone, and this is unlikely to happen :) -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From ludwig.nussel at suse.de Tue Apr 22 15:33:35 2008 From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:33:35 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] mingw32: allow to override cflags and libs for external libraries Message-ID: <1208892815-23245-1-git-send-email-ludwig.nussel@suse.de> --- Makefile | 56 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---------------- 1 files changed, 40 insertions(+), 16 deletions(-) diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile index e27b942..a4ad9aa 100644 --- a/Makefile +++ b/Makefile @@ -102,7 +102,11 @@ USE_OPENAL=1 endif ifndef USE_OPENAL_DLOPEN -USE_OPENAL_DLOPEN=0 + ifeq ($(PLATFORM),mingw32) + USE_OPENAL_DLOPEN=1 + else + USE_OPENAL_DLOPEN=0 + endif endif ifndef USE_CURL @@ -154,6 +158,16 @@ SDLHDIR=$(MOUNT_DIR)/SDL12 LIBSDIR=$(MOUNT_DIR)/libs TEMPDIR=/tmp +# set PKG_CONFIG_PATH to influence this, e.g. +# PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/opt/cross/i386-mingw32msvc/lib/pkgconfig +CURL_CFLAGS=$(shell pkg-config --cflags libcurl) +CURL_LIBS=$(shell pkg-config --libs libcurl) +OPENAL_CFLAGS=$(shell pkg-config --cflags openal) +OPENAL_LIBS=$(shell pkg-config --libs openal) +# FIXME: introduce CLIENT_CFLAGS +SDL_CFLAGS=$(shell pkg-config --cflags sdl|sed 's/-Dmain=SDL_main//') +SDL_LIBS=$(shell pkg-config --libs sdl) + # extract version info # echo $(BUILD_CLIENT) @@ -395,18 +409,13 @@ endif # Require Windows XP or later BASE_CFLAGS += -DWINVER=0x501 - ifeq ($(USE_LOCAL_HEADERS),1) - BASE_CFLAGS += -I$(SDLHDIR)/include - endif - ifeq ($(USE_OPENAL),1) - BASE_CFLAGS += -DUSE_OPENAL=1 -DUSE_OPENAL_DLOPEN - endif - - ifeq ($(USE_CURL),1) - BASE_CFLAGS += -DUSE_CURL - ifneq ($(USE_CURL_DLOPEN),1) - BASE_CFLAGS += -DCURL_STATICLIB + BASE_CFLAGS += -DUSE_OPENAL + BASE_CFLAGS += $(OPENAL_CFLAGS) + ifeq ($(USE_OPENAL_DLOPEN),1) + BASE_CFLAGS += -DUSE_OPENAL_DLOPEN + else + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(OPENAL_LDFLAGS) endif endif @@ -430,8 +439,15 @@ endif CLIENT_LDFLAGS = -mwindows -lgdi32 -lole32 -lopengl32 ifeq ($(USE_CURL),1) + BASE_CFLAGS += -DUSE_CURL + BASE_CFLAGS += $(CURL_CFLAGS) ifneq ($(USE_CURL_DLOPEN),1) - CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libcurl.a + ifeq ($(USE_LOCAL_HEADERS),1) + BASE_CFLAGS += -DCURL_STATICLIB + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libcurl.a + else + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(CURL_LIBS) + endif endif endif @@ -449,9 +465,17 @@ endif RELEASE_CFLAGS=$(BASE_CFLAGS) -DNDEBUG $(OPTIMIZE) # libmingw32 must be linked before libSDLmain - CLIENT_LDFLAGS += -lmingw32 \ - $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libSDLmain.a \ - $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libSDL.dll.a + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += -lmingw32 + ifeq ($(USE_LOCAL_HEADERS),1) + BASE_CFLAGS += -I$(SDLHDIR)/include + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libSDLmain.a \ + $(LIBSDIR)/win32/libSDL.dll.a + else + BASE_CFLAGS += $(SDL_CFLAGS) + CLIENT_LDFLAGS += $(SDL_LIBS) + endif + + BUILD_CLIENT_SMP = 0 -- 1.5.3.4 From monk at rq3.com Tue Apr 22 18:08:41 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:08:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <59754.63.150.173.150.1208902121.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > From the FAQ URL: > > "If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are > definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run > linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means > combining them into one program." > > Once loaded, the mod becomes part of the q3 executable. Some will argue > that the Quake virtual machine is somehow not "true" linking and thus > doesn't qualify, but I disagree with that. Ok, now THAT I understand. I don't believe "aggregation" is the proper term for what y'all believe to be in violation. You are contending that the UrT mod is a (heh) module combined with ioUrT into one program. So even if someone gets the current version of ioq3 and their mod and puts them in one ZIP, without customizing ioq3, you're going to feel that it's in violation of the Q3 mod sdk license due to "intent". But not necessarily in violation of the GPL. Is that correct? I still think of Oswald as the one-time head of the "Action Quake Map Depot" for the Action Quake 2 mod. I think he might live in Texas which might explain his views on Mexicans. Monk. From tim at ngus.net Tue Apr 22 18:56:38 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:56:38 +0100 Subject: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <59754.63.150.173.150.1208902121.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> <59754.63.150.173.150.1208902121.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> Message-ID: <20080422235638.969cefda.tim@ngus.net> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:08:41 -0600 (MDT) monk at rq3.com wrote: > Ok, now THAT I understand. I don't believe "aggregation" is the > proper term for what y'all believe to be in violation. I didn't actually bring aggregation up; I'm not sure who it was. Suffice to say, I think ioUrT + UrT constitutes more than aggregation, so from that point of view I don't think the term aggregation has much relevance, no. > You are contending that the UrT mod is a (heh) module combined with > ioUrT into one program. Correct. > So even if someone gets the current version of ioq3 and their mod and > puts them in one ZIP, without customizing ioq3, you're going to feel > that it's in violation of the Q3 mod sdk license due to "intent". Due to the fact my reading of the license prohibits it, as previously discussed. > But not necessarily in violation of the GPL. Is that correct? The GPL would be violated also due to the combination the licenses, each of which are mutually exclusive. From justdoug at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 22 21:36:34 2008 From: justdoug at socal.rr.com (Doug Winger) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:36:34 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: <20080422235638.969cefda.tim@ngus.net> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <20080417191912.ee728b3e.tim@ngus.net> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> <59754.63.150.173.150.1208902121.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422235638.969cefda.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: >On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:08:41 -0600 (MDT) monk at rq3.com wrote: >> Ok, now THAT I understand. I don't believe "aggregation" is the >> proper term for what y'all believe to be in violation. > >I didn't actually bring aggregation up; I'm not sure who it was. >Suffice to say, I think ioUrT + UrT constitutes more than aggregation, >so from that point of view I don't think the term aggregation has much >relevance, no. > >> You are contending that the UrT mod is a (heh) module combined with >> ioUrT into one program. > >Correct. > >> So even if someone gets the current version of ioq3 and their mod and >> puts them in one ZIP, without customizing ioq3, you're going to feel >> that it's in violation of the Q3 mod sdk license due to "intent". > >Due to the fact my reading of the license prohibits it, as previously >discussed. > >> But not necessarily in violation of the GPL. Is that correct? > >The GPL would be violated also due to the combination the licenses, >each of which are mutually exclusive. Since I have to read this stuff and have some spare time, I think I'm allowed a two-cents contribution. IANAL (and neither is anybody else here, I can safely assume), but have watched a legal department do a complicated mating dance is FOSS in my time. I think the confusion arises because Id included the game code- the source normally intended to wind up as qvm and which had previously been "released" as part of the sdk for mods- along with the engine code - which was definitely to live under gpl protection- in one grand package. Well, that and the factor that a person designated PR flack is doing what PR flacks have always done; making statements formulated to make things truthier. Going by the reasoning some have bruited about here previously, by logical extension any php, perl or Javascript code written would be subjected to gpl restrictions requiring availability of source as it's modifying the gpl-ed source or can't run without it. That ain't so, and even the gpl carefully makes the distinction. While you can't claim authorship of the PHP, perl or Javascript interpreter code them/itself you've modified, you can safely do so for any of the "...code that makes use of them in an interactive fashion" that you're written. It's not modifying the PHP etc. "engine" in the least, but making use of it and applying it in a way it was designed for. Subtle difference, but it's there. It's not derivative work on the gpl-ed code itself. This is how consultants make money and makes web site's content copyrightable. It's also why a portion of the perl script stuff you see has a copyright on it and where the sdk license trumps the gpl in this situation. The game code is not actually being linked +into+ the engine code during compile time (Okay, but not tightly but instead as a sort of plug-in module if you squint a lot and don't look too carefully) and so falls under content rather than executable. It satisfies that "... makes use of [it] in an interactive fashion" quite nicely. If you hold to Id's +original+ idea of "qvm/game source is sdk- even if it's compiled natively by naughty people not using our tools and so making things platform specific. Thou Shalt Not Mess With The Engine," then all you can do is grumble and think bad thoughts about closed source mod game code. Now, if they mess with the ENGINE, you can smite them from on high with all the power that the FSA can muster and even get Id to hold them down while you do it. Truthfully, if you guys are gonna keep this in play, perhaps you'd best be served in asking someone from Id about this. They are the authors, after all. And I'm all out of pennies, so this is all you're hear from me.. - Doug From rjisaac at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 09:06:58 2008 From: rjisaac at gmail.com (Robert Isaac) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:06:58 -0400 Subject: [quake3] Re: ioUrT licensing controversy (was Re: Greetings) In-Reply-To: References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <4807A7A6.1000908@insectenboek.nl> <20080417211756.90104a7d.tim@ngus.net> <480C77E3.7050306@insectenboek.nl> <20080421124549.c3c89f7b.tim@ngus.net> <58963.63.150.173.150.1208802509.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422124756.52ba2396.tim@ngus.net> <59754.63.150.173.150.1208902121.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <20080422235638.969cefda.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <3b47d0520804230606vf6608a5l5a418867d33895ac@mail.gmail.com> > > Truthfully, if you guys are gonna keep this in play, perhaps you'd > best be served in asking someone from Id about this. They are the > authors, after all. And I'm all out of pennies, so this is all you're > hear from me.. Actually the main reason this is an issue at all is because RMS and Eben Moglen are so extremely paranoid of companies and individuals violating the gpl that they kept the license specifically vague when defining things such as "aggregate", "linking", and "derivative work". These sorts of discussions are a direct result of that paranoia and asking id about it won't solve the real problem which is the vague terminology of the license. http://www.fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/bangalore-rms-transcript For those that don't follow links the relevant section of the talk (remember v3 is just a clarification of v2): Eben Moglen: As when, for example, people tried to draw a line between static linking and dynamic linking under GPL version two, and we had to keep telling people that whatever the boundary of the work is under copyright law, it doesn't depend upon whether resolution occurs at link time or run time. Right? Those kinds of technical decisions, whatever they are, don't map neatly into the language of copyright, which is the language of the licence. Richard Stallman: Nor into the intentions of the GPL. Because, the point is, if we drew the line in the kind of clear way that programmers want, in terms of technical points, then it would be easy for somebody to evade the intention of the GPL just by taking that line as the instructions on how to do it. From der_marner15 at hotmail.de Wed Apr 23 14:36:14 2008 From: der_marner15 at hotmail.de (eweweew weweewwe) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:36:14 +0200 Subject: Ioquake 3 Raytracing Patch compile.... Message-ID: Hello I dont have any experience like c++ or something... And i want to test the new Raytracing Patch for Ioquake 3 out... can someone upload an compiled Version? In the best way an windows build but when it dont work than an linux build thank you very much Download Link: http://ioquake3.org/files/rtpatch1270.zip _________________________________________________________________ Die aktuelle Fr?hjahrsmode - Preise vergleichen bei MSN Shopping http://shopping.msn.de/category/damenbekleidung/bcatid66/forsale?text=category:damenbekleidung&edt=1&ptnrid=230 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benikaj at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 18:06:14 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:06:14 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <4807AB62.3050408@insectenboek.nl> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> <4807AB62.3050408@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <480FB2D6.8010407@gmail.com> Erik K. wrote: > On 17-4-2008 18:07, Anthony J. Benik wrote: >> Just FYI > > I thought about this some more and have come to the conclusion ... > Thanks Anthony. > No Prob. Btw, (no offense Tim but) Tim's not an agent of the copyright holder(s) of the q3 engine even if its released under GPL... So from what I can tell ID software would have to sue UrbanTerror if anybody did at all, unlikely because UT is non-commercial (that is if the case fell to the a US jurisdiction (where q3 was made) and I am interpreting correctly). I personally think UT should GPL their source and might boycott their mod until they do... However, having said the above, I'll defend the developer's of UT's liberty do do what they want with their hard work so long as they are within their rights... Put yourself in their shoes, would you want to sink all that time into a project just to have my it taken from you? ;) If UT would smarten up one day their mod might have more developers and go farther... I am by no means the only person who looks for GPL before contributing and UrbanTerror's licensing may prevent patching from GPL mod sources meaning they may have to 'reinvent the wheel' where other GPL projects may freely share their patches. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 250 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From russ at coldstonelabs.org Wed Apr 23 19:17:26 2008 From: russ at coldstonelabs.org (Russell Valentine) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:17:26 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <480FB2D6.8010407@gmail.com> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> <4807AB62.3050408@insectenboek.nl> <480FB2D6.8010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <480FC386.2080307@coldstonelabs.org> Anthony J. Benik wrote: > Erik K. wrote: >> On 17-4-2008 18:07, Anthony J. Benik wrote: >>> Just FYI >> >> I thought about this some more and have come to the conclusion ... >> Thanks Anthony. >> > > No Prob. Btw, (no offense Tim but) Tim's not an agent of the copyright > holder(s) of the q3 engine even if its released under GPL... So from > what I can tell ID software would have to sue UrbanTerror if anybody did > at all, unlikely because UT is non-commercial (that is if the case fell > to the a US jurisdiction (where q3 was made) and I am interpreting > correctly). > You are wrong, the modifications the ioquake team has done are not owned by ID Software. There are multiple copyright holders, and ID Software is "one" of them. From benikaj at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 19:26:21 2008 From: benikaj at gmail.com (Anthony J. Benik) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:26:21 -0500 Subject: [quake3] Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <480FC386.2080307@coldstonelabs.org> References: <47F71410.4080504@timedoctor.org> <57813.63.150.173.150.1208306146.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <7a44ba370804161740yee068e9ke980a271ce3be94a@mail.gmail.com> <200804161914.36426.scott@hermitworksentertainment.com> <3627.64.81.110.230.1208439747.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> <48075E93.5090504@ngus.net> <480767AC.5020708@insectenboek.nl> <480775CF.4000604@gmail.com> <4807AB62.3050408@insectenboek.nl> <480FB2D6.8010407@gmail.com> <480FC386.2080307@coldstonelabs.org> Message-ID: <480FC59D.7080008@gmail.com> Russell Valentine wrote: > Anthony J. Benik wrote: >> Erik K. wrote: >>> On 17-4-2008 18:07, Anthony J. Benik wrote: >>>> Just FYI >>> >>> I thought about this some more and have come to the conclusion ... >>> Thanks Anthony. >>> >> >> No Prob. Btw, (no offense Tim but) Tim's not an agent of the >> copyright holder(s) of the q3 engine even if its released under GPL... >> So from what I can tell ID software would have to sue UrbanTerror if >> anybody did at all, unlikely because UT is non-commercial (that is if >> the case fell to the a US jurisdiction (where q3 was made) and I am >> interpreting correctly). >> > > You are wrong, the modifications the ioquake team has done are not owned > by ID Software. There are multiple copyright holders, and ID Software is > "one" of them. > OH, my mistake! I'm sorry I thought UrT was using the original q3 engine. I obviously misunderstood the issue. I now see UrT is using ioq3 as their engine's code base. So then the topic is are they separate products or not. In that case all the copyright holders might have to agree to sue on the topic of the whole engine or ... any individual group might sue under the part of the code they are a derivative author for. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 250 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From cbunting99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 19:29:37 2008 From: cbunting99 at gmail.com (Christopher Bunting) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:29:37 -0400 Subject: [quake3] iPhone In-Reply-To: <4de771c30804211852j40442e80o4caceb7bc34fa757@mail.gmail.com> References: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> <4de771c30804211852j40442e80o4caceb7bc34fa757@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a44ba370804231629r55a5c46at442e4d836c218501@mail.gmail.com> Quake 3 has already been ported to iPhone.. http://gizmodo.com/376536/quake-3-arena-ported-to-iphone-let-the-networked-games-commence Rewriting the graphics to support the apple accelerometer functions isn't that hard. Any knowledgable game programmer can or should be able to do it. But replicating the quake multiplayer functions is what will give the most trouble. >>I think the official apple SDK might be incompatible with ioquake3's GPLv2 license. Doesn't matter, ioQuake3 still follows the original Quake 3 GPL License. ioQuake 3 can't impose something else on top so if you can legally do it for Quake 3 and Apple SDK, you can do it with ioQuake 3 as well although Quake 3 would be a better choice to start with. I am NOT a troll. What you all do now with ioQuake3 has just been done Q3 over the past 8 years. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monk at rq3.com Wed Apr 23 19:48:13 2008 From: monk at rq3.com (monk at rq3.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:48:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [quake3] iPhone In-Reply-To: <7a44ba370804231629r55a5c46at442e4d836c218501@mail.gmail.com> References: <32E8C94A-3A7D-4A9A-8B7C-A578AE2D5FEA@mac.com> <4de771c30804211852j40442e80o4caceb7bc34fa757@mail.gmail.com> <7a44ba370804231629r55a5c46at442e4d836c218501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58650.63.150.173.150.1208994493.squirrel@mail.rq3.com> > Quake 3 has already been ported to iPhone.. > > http://gizmodo.com/376536/quake-3-arena-ported-to-iphone-let-the-networked-games-commence I think they used ioq3 for that, actually, not the closed quake 3 license. Some of the blokes who did it actually posted to this mailing list a week or two ago. Which is applicable to the next point... >>>I think the official apple SDK might be incompatible with ioquake3's > GPLv2 license. > > Doesn't matter, ioQuake3 still follows the original Quake 3 GPL License. > ioQuake 3 can't impose something else on top so if you can legally do it > for > Quake 3 and Apple SDK, you can do it with ioQuake 3 as well although Quake > 3 > would be a better choice to start with. I believe the GPL'ed Quake 3 code uses GPLv2. While you might have a point if id or an id licensee of Quake 3 did that port, it was an ioq3 port covered under GPL. So it's not a case of people here trying to impose GPL onto a licensed closed-source Q3 port to the iPhone. It was built from the GPL source specifically. > I am NOT a troll. What you all do now with ioQuake3 has just been done Q3 > over the past 8 years. Those two sentences seem contradictory. You claim you're not trolling then seem to want to bait people? I haven't seen too many Q3-based games that run natively on SGI boxes except for ones built off of the ioq3 source, as an example. And there are many games that used the licensed Q3 engine that did things that ioq3 doesn't yet do, i.e. the scripting and environmental effects in RtCW and Enemy Territory come to mind offhand. I think that statement is inaccurate in a number of ways. While true that other Q3 GPL implementations have done things that ioq3 hasn't (XreaL, that .NET port, etc.), I think that's common knowledge? Have there been many licensed Q3 products that control movement through an accelerometer? It might be trivial, sure, but I can't think of any offhand. There might be some Q3 GPL-based projects that do that, but I don't know of any of those, either. That's not Carmack in the video you linked to. It's Scott. And his hair is not nearly as beautiful as Carmack's used to be! Monk. From tigger at lvlworld.com Fri Apr 25 06:54:56 2008 From: tigger at lvlworld.com (Tigger) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:54:56 +1000 Subject: Full screenshot from POV? Message-ID: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> Is it at all possible to get a 'full' screen shot. By this I mean something like an environment map cube shot from the current player position (4 shots that line up horizontally plus one above and one below). A full panoramic shot would be fine as well if that was possible. I've experimented with cg_fov 90 and 'turning' (about) 90 degrees and taking another, but this produces distortion. Also tried cg_fov 160 and re-shaping the results, but this is not a good approach or result either. Any tips? -Tig From audiocheese at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 07:12:38 2008 From: audiocheese at gmail.com (James Munro) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:12:38 +0100 Subject: [quake3] Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> Message-ID: <71f3c1de0804250412r3a7f8fa3jd0b384dfebe7f938@mail.gmail.com> Interesting, you say there's distortion from turning 90 degrees, are you doing this in code and is it something that a little Photoshop stitching couldn't fix? Failing that I guess the solution lies in FOV tinkering... Regards, James On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Tigger wrote: > Is it at all possible to get a 'full' screen shot. By this I mean > something like an environment map cube shot from the current player > position (4 shots that line up horizontally plus one above and one > below). A full panoramic shot would be fine as well if that was > possible. > > I've experimented with cg_fov 90 and 'turning' (about) 90 degrees > and taking another, but this produces distortion. Also tried cg_fov 160 > and re-shaping the results, but this is not a good approach or result > either. > > Any tips? > > -Tig > > > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Fri Apr 25 07:38:49 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:38:49 +0200 Subject: [quake3] Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <71f3c1de0804250412r3a7f8fa3jd0b384dfebe7f938@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> <71f3c1de0804250412r3a7f8fa3jd0b384dfebe7f938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804251338.52277.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> On Freitag, 25. April 2008, James Munro wrote: > Interesting, you say there's distortion from turning 90 degrees, are you > doing this in code and is it something that a little Photoshop stitching > couldn't fix? Failing that I guess the solution lies in FOV tinkering... By the very design of the projection, a FOV of >= 180? is not possible mathematically. And above 100? you get heavy distortions. -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From tim at ngus.net Fri Apr 25 07:58:36 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:58:36 +0100 Subject: Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> Message-ID: <20080425125836.1ee7512e.tim@ngus.net> On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:54:56 +1000 Tigger wrote: > Is it at all possible to get a 'full' screen shot. By this I mean > something like an environment map cube shot from the current player > position (4 shots that line up horizontally plus one above and one > below). I wrote a silly little mod that does just this many many years ago: http://tremulous.net/junk/skyboxmod.zip I think it should still be API compatible with 1.32. If not let me know and I'll bung the source up somewhere. From tigger at lvlworld.com Fri Apr 25 09:08:39 2008 From: tigger at lvlworld.com (Tigger) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:08:39 +1000 Subject: [quake3] Re: Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <20080425125836.1ee7512e.tim@ngus.net> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> <20080425125836.1ee7512e.tim@ngus.net> Message-ID: <20080425230839.78b97f17@piglet> On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:58:36 +0100 Tim Angus wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:54:56 +1000 Tigger wrote: > > Is it at all possible to get a 'full' screen shot. By this I mean > > something like an environment map cube shot from the current player > > position (4 shots that line up horizontally plus one above and one > > below). > > I wrote a silly little mod that does just this many many years ago: > > http://tremulous.net/junk/skyboxmod.zip > > I think it should still be API compatible with 1.32. If not let me > know and I'll bung the source up somewhere. > OMG! Its perfect! Output is in 512x512 as well :] Do you know if 1024x1024 output is possible? 512x512 is what I was hoping for, just wondering really. Thank you very much!! -Tig From tigger at lvlworld.com Fri Apr 25 09:15:13 2008 From: tigger at lvlworld.com (Tigger) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:15:13 +1000 Subject: [quake3] Re: Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <20080425230839.78b97f17@piglet> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> <20080425125836.1ee7512e.tim@ngus.net> <20080425230839.78b97f17@piglet> Message-ID: <20080425231513.6a871841@piglet> On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:08:39 +1000 Tigger wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:58:36 +0100 > Tim Angus wrote: > > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:54:56 +1000 Tigger wrote: > > > Is it at all possible to get a 'full' screen shot. By this I mean > > > something like an environment map cube shot from the current > > > player position (4 shots that line up horizontally plus one above > > > and one below). > > > > I wrote a silly little mod that does just this many many years ago: > > > > http://tremulous.net/junk/skyboxmod.zip > > > > I think it should still be API compatible with 1.32. If not let me > > know and I'll bung the source up somewhere. > > > > OMG! Its perfect! Output is in 512x512 as well :] > > Do you know if 1024x1024 output is possible? 512x512 is what I was > hoping for, just wondering really. > > Thank you very much!! Update :] While it is very much what I was looking for, if you ever worked on this again, may I suggest some kind of way to 'freeze' the animations like weapons, skybox shaders, flames, etc... or take all 6 shots at once. It is great the way it is now, but animations cause a minor alignment issue (which I can more than live with :]). Again, thanks! -Tig From vectorpoem at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 12:24:10 2008 From: vectorpoem at gmail.com (JP LeBreton) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:24:10 -0700 Subject: [quake3] Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> Message-ID: <481205AA.1070802@gmail.com> Tigger wrote: > Any tips? Old, and software renderer-only, but: http://wouter.fov120.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/ I'd still like to see this done with an engine like Q3 but it sounds like the technique it uses isn't easy to integrate with 3D acceleration. From harshavsn at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 13:21:59 2008 From: harshavsn at gmail.com (Harsha Sri Narayana) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:21:59 +0100 Subject: [quake3] Full screenshot from POV? In-Reply-To: <481205AA.1070802@gmail.com> References: <20080425205456.63af28eb@piglet> <481205AA.1070802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7784416f0804251021y3d9ba207wecaae332f7c45a0d@mail.gmail.com> This might be useful to someone. http://www.opengl.org/resources/code/samples/sig99/advanced99/notes/node177.html I think you could then do 2 passes, 1 for each hemisphere. -Harsha 2008/4/25 JP LeBreton : > Tigger wrote: > > > Any tips? > > > > Old, and software renderer-only, but: > > http://wouter.fov120.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/ > > I'd still like to see this done with an engine like Q3 but it sounds like > the technique it uses isn't easy to integrate with 3D acceleration. > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > From defsyn at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 16:38:27 2008 From: defsyn at gmail.com (Henry Garcia) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:38:27 -0400 Subject: FS_Startup SVN1327M win_mingw-x86 Message-ID: Receive the following error when starting freshly built ioquake3.x86.exe This is the message copied to the Windows clipboard. ioffo3 -1_SVN1327M win_mingw-x86 Apr25 2008 > ------FS_Startup ------- > Current search path: > C:\Documents and Settings\User\Application Data\Quake3/foobar > c:\msys\1.0.11\home\User\quake3\baseq3/foobar > Works fine using SVN1320 Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gottfried.haider at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 06:57:58 2008 From: gottfried.haider at gmail.com (Gottfried Haider) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:57:58 +0200 Subject: on the fly replacement of textures Message-ID: <48145C36.7000303@gmail.com> Hello all, I've been thinking about using ioquake3 as framework for a university project that I am doing.. while I have some knowledge in coding C, I was not really into FPS at that time, so please excuse my ignorance. Is there already a possibility to replace textures of level objects on the fly, with image files being read from the file system? If not, would you think this is feasible to do? (maybe some pointers in the source to start from?) Please CC me as I might have unsubscribed from the list.. thanks|have a nice day Gottfried From audiocheese at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 08:11:07 2008 From: audiocheese at gmail.com (James Munro) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:11:07 +0100 Subject: [quake3] on the fly replacement of textures In-Reply-To: <48145C36.7000303@gmail.com> References: <48145C36.7000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71f3c1de0804270511u5809c4d6jc0fab0cf388ae13f@mail.gmail.com> I think there is a program called TexMod or similar that allows you to do exactly this with DX9 games and programs. If you wanted to do this with ioquake3 however, I wonder, can you simply change the texture pointers currently in memory? Regards, James On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Gottfried Haider < gottfried.haider at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello all, > > > I've been thinking about using ioquake3 as framework for a university > project that I am doing.. while I have some knowledge in coding C, I was > not really into FPS at that time, so please excuse my ignorance. > > Is there already a possibility to replace textures of level objects on > the fly, with image files being read from the file system? If not, would > you think this is feasible to do? (maybe some pointers in the source to > start from?) > > > Please CC me as I might have unsubscribed from the list.. > > thanks|have a nice day > Gottfried > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thing at groundplan.com Sun Apr 27 08:38:21 2008 From: thing at groundplan.com (thing) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:38:21 +0100 Subject: [quake3] on the fly replacement of textures In-Reply-To: <48145C36.7000303@gmail.com> References: <48145C36.7000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <481473BD.6090502@groundplan.com> Hi, There is a way for mappers to change a texture within the game while playing, although it is quite limited. It has been a long time but if memory serves me correctly you can use func_static. Target this with a trigger and your away. So it might be worth looking at the func_static code ... It was a *long* time ago now that I did this but I definitely had it working :) Cheers, Tim Gottfried Haider wrote: > Hello all, > > > I've been thinking about using ioquake3 as framework for a university > project that I am doing.. while I have some knowledge in coding C, I was > not really into FPS at that time, so please excuse my ignorance. > > Is there already a possibility to replace textures of level objects on > the fly, with image files being read from the file system? If not, would > you think this is feasible to do? (maybe some pointers in the source to > start from?) > > > Please CC me as I might have unsubscribed from the list.. > > thanks|have a nice day > Gottfried > > > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > From tim at ngus.net Sun Apr 27 11:09:32 2008 From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:09:32 +0100 Subject: Q3 Skybox mod In-Reply-To: <20080426195242.6baf79da@piglet> References: <20080426195242.6baf79da@piglet> Message-ID: <20080427160932.bd72d2bc.tim@ngus.net> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:52:42 +1000 Tigger wrote: > Hi, Any chance I can get the source code for this mod? > > I've been playing with it and would like to try a few more things. If > not, thanks anyway! http://tremulous.net/junk/skyboxmod-src.zip I put it together in an evening for a friend some 7 years ago, so don't expect much out of the code (assuming you can find the changes in the first place). There wasn't really much to it IIRC. Sorry for taking so long to reply, I've had a busy couple of days. > Do you know if 1024x1024 output is possible? 512x512 is what I was > hoping for, just wondering really. This would be very easy. > While it is very much what I was looking for, if you ever worked on > this again, may I suggest some kind of way to 'freeze' the animations > like weapons, skybox shaders, flames, etc... or take all 6 shots at > once. This would be tricky to do in cgame code I think, at best it would need a lot of tedious modification to the data passed to each ref entity render. It's probably somewhat easier with the engine source available now though. From arny at ats.s.bawue.de Sun Apr 27 15:12:35 2008 From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:12:35 +0200 Subject: stereo rendering Message-ID: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Hello, I have now committed my work for anaglyph stereo rendering to the main SVN tree for all to enjoy and it works quite well. However, I'd still like to have stereo rendering with shutter glasses or similar techniques working. Could someone here who has got the hardware test whether it's working? Instead of setting r_anaglyphMode to a non-zero value, set r_stereoEnabled to 1 and maybe then it's done. Can someone try this please? -- Thilo Schulz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 20:24:05 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:24:05 -0500 Subject: [quake3] stereo rendering In-Reply-To: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> References: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like a job for SGI.... don't have any shutter glasses even though the hardware can do it/has shutter glasses port.. =\ Patrick Baggett On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Thilo Schulz wrote: > Hello, > > I have now committed my work for anaglyph stereo rendering to the main SVN > tree for all to enjoy and it works quite well. However, I'd still like to > have stereo rendering with shutter glasses or similar techniques working. > Could someone here who has got the hardware test whether it's working? > Instead > of setting r_anaglyphMode to a non-zero value, set r_stereoEnabled to 1 > and > maybe then it's done. Can someone try this please? > > -- > Thilo Schulz > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erik at insectenboek.nl Mon Apr 28 05:17:15 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:17:15 +0200 Subject: [quake3] stereo rendering In-Reply-To: <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> References: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4815961B.3050806@insectenboek.nl> On 28-4-2008 2:24, Patrick Baggett wrote: > Sounds like a job for SGI.... don't have any shutter glasses even though the > hardware can do it/has shutter glasses port.. =\ I have shutter glasses laying around at my parrents house somewhere. But the video card is in my grandma's PC. Yes, she's using a Asus GF1 DDR256 for Patience :D Are all these shutter glasses ports/shutter glasses compatible? From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 14:03:34 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:03:34 -0500 Subject: [quake3] stereo rendering In-Reply-To: <4815961B.3050806@insectenboek.nl> References: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> <4815961B.3050806@insectenboek.nl> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804281103y7ea0a13cica76576a6829e82@mail.gmail.com> Possibly. I've got two different SGI's with two different connectors: DB-9F (looks like a serial port female) (Octane/Indigo2) 3 pin miniDIN (Octane2) I look up the two later. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:17 AM, Erik K. wrote: > On 28-4-2008 2:24, Patrick Baggett wrote: > > > Sounds like a job for SGI.... don't have any shutter glasses even though > > the > > hardware can do it/has shutter glasses port.. =\ > > > > I have shutter glasses laying around at my parrents house somewhere. But > the video card is in my grandma's PC. Yes, she's using a Asus GF1 DDR256 for > Patience :D Are all these shutter glasses ports/shutter glasses compatible? > > --- > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baggett.patrick at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 14:03:56 2008 From: baggett.patrick at gmail.com (Patrick Baggett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:03:56 -0500 Subject: [quake3] stereo rendering In-Reply-To: <52f46b6b0804281103y7ea0a13cica76576a6829e82@mail.gmail.com> References: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> <4815961B.3050806@insectenboek.nl> <52f46b6b0804281103y7ea0a13cica76576a6829e82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <52f46b6b0804281103raedc68buc926805d0c155cfd@mail.gmail.com> Rather, look up ASUS GF1 model. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Patrick Baggett wrote: > Possibly. > > I've got two different SGI's with two different connectors: > > DB-9F (looks like a serial port female) (Octane/Indigo2) > 3 pin miniDIN (Octane2) > > I look up the two later. > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:17 AM, Erik K. wrote: > > > On 28-4-2008 2:24, Patrick Baggett wrote: > > > > > Sounds like a job for SGI.... don't have any shutter glasses even > > > though the > > > hardware can do it/has shutter glasses port.. =\ > > > > > > > I have shutter glasses laying around at my parrents house somewhere. But > > the video card is in my grandma's PC. Yes, she's using a Asus GF1 DDR256 for > > Patience :D Are all these shutter glasses ports/shutter glasses compatible? > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to quake3-unsubscribe at icculus.org > > Mailing list archives: http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?50 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erik at insectenboek.nl Mon Apr 28 18:07:25 2008 From: erik at insectenboek.nl (Erik K.) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:07:25 +0200 Subject: [quake3] stereo rendering In-Reply-To: <52f46b6b0804281103raedc68buc926805d0c155cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200804272112.39515.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <52f46b6b0804271724peed740fk20c77deb1e6c4248@mail.gmail.com> <4815961B.3050806@insectenboek.nl> <52f46b6b0804281103y7ea0a13cica76576a6829e82@mail.gmail.com> <52f46b6b0804281103raedc68buc926805d0c155cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48164A9D.1090701@insectenboek.nl> On 28-4-2008 20:03, Patrick Baggett wrote: >> I've got two different SGI's with two different connectors: >> >> DB-9F (looks like a serial port female) (Octane/Indigo2) >> 3 pin miniDIN (Octane2) Iirc, mine looked like a black 3.5mm jack. I'll have to check next time I visit my parrents. From tylerschwend at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 14:00:52 2008 From: tylerschwend at gmail.com (Tyler Schwend) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:00:52 -0400 Subject: Linux dedicated server nastiness In-Reply-To: <8fe0d9190804301053h7df369abra247079cd9dc7bb9@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fe0d9190804301053h7df369abra247079cd9dc7bb9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fe0d9190804301100p114c42c1h6d7ab7ff2e3b068f@mail.gmail.com> I noticed this in OpenArena, but it happens when using the executable compiled from ioQuake SVN as well... ----------- say(Kyonshi^7): I am the leader. telteltelKilsay(Major^7): I'm the leader. ItetelteltelIteIteItesay(Dark^7): who is the leader of this rag-tag bunch? telteltelItesay(Major^7): I am off to get the flag. telteltelItesay(Penguin^7): Who's the leader of this rag-tag bunch? IteItesay(Grism^7): Sounds like a plan. Itesay(Major^7): I lead. say(Nekoyss^7): Sounds like a plan. IteIteIteIteIteIteItebroadcast: print "Beret^7 got the RED flag!\n" IteIteItetelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelKilItebroadcast: print "Grunt^7 got the BLUE flag!\n" IteIteIteKilbroadcast: print "Sergei^7 fragged BLUE's flag carrier!\n" telteltelteltelteltelIteteltelteltelsay(Sergei^7): Sounds like a plan. telteltelteltelteltelKilItebroadcast: print "Sergei^7 returned the RED flag!\n" KilKilItesay(Beret^7): I shall get our flag back. telteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelteltelIteKilsay(Rai^7): I'm off to get the flag. ------------- My games.log looks like: --------------- slipgate:~.openarena/baseoa# tail -f games.log 0:00 --- 0:00 Ini 0:00 War 0:10 Cli 0:10 Cli 0:10 Cli 0:10 Cli 0:10 Cli 0:10 Cli 0:10 Ite 0:12 Ite 0:18 Ite 0:18 Ite 0:19 Ite 0:20 Cli 0:20 Cli 0:20 Cli 0:20 Cli 0:20 Cli 0:20 Cli 0:23 Ite 0:23 say 0:23 Ite 0:24 say 0:24 Ite 0:25 Ite 0:26 Ite 0:26 say 0:29 Shu 0:29 --- --------------- Not sure where to begin. :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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