From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 08:20:04 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:20:04 +0200
Subject: Mp3 support patch
Message-ID: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

I intend to add mp3 support to the svn codebase soon. It has worked flawlessly 
with EliteForce sound data which is on the largest part mp3 based, so it is 
well tested. (x86, x86_64, ppc, Linux, MacOSX, Windows...)
I know that Timbo has some reservations against mp3 support, mostly for 
ideological reasons.
Granted, I would always prefer vorbis over mp3. Still, we cannot hide from the 
fact that mp3 is a common format so there are cases where sound/music people 
want to use for their mods are exclusively available in mp3 format to them. 
To convert them to ogg would mean a loss of quality.
The mp3 support would be used like the vorbis stuff and will have to be 
explicitly enabled at compile time (i.g. Makefile.local). Furthermore, libmad 
is required.
Protest now, or I will apply the changes in a few days.

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFI6b7Zx4hBtWQhl4RAhAMAKCPjB3GHmyKYhORiIpnvKeC3sO//wCdHA0z
fjY1RE1sx/xKik5ZVJLeTTs=
=YqY3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From lmsmercykiller at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 08:35:40 2006
From: lmsmercykiller at gmail.com (Stephen Youts)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 07:35:40 -0500
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <ec5a04ba0610040535p405394bbl525cfa6a2ca221da@mail.gmail.com>

"Still, we cannot hide from the fact that mp3 is a common format so there
are cases where sound/music people
want to use for their mods are exclusively available in mp3 format to them."

Obviously I'm not an active ioq3 developer, so I'm not expecting my opinion
to carry a lot of weight, but this
is probably the number one reason that mp3 should (for pratical reasons) be
included. I always keep
uncompressed copies of all my sound data, but I've known some others that
aren't so keen on "wasting"
hard drive space. When "they only need mp3 anyway". So yes, mp3 support
would be a plus.

On 10/4/06, Thilo Schulz <arny at ats.s.bawue.de> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello,
>
> I intend to add mp3 support to the svn codebase soon. It has worked
> flawlessly
> with EliteForce sound data which is on the largest part mp3 based, so it
> is
> well tested. (x86, x86_64, ppc, Linux, MacOSX, Windows...)
> I know that Timbo has some reservations against mp3 support, mostly for
> ideological reasons.
> Granted, I would always prefer vorbis over mp3. Still, we cannot hide from
> the
> fact that mp3 is a common format so there are cases where sound/music
> people
> want to use for their mods are exclusively available in mp3 format to
> them.
> To convert them to ogg would mean a loss of quality.
> The mp3 support would be used like the vorbis stuff and will have to be
> explicitly enabled at compile time (i.g. Makefile.local). Furthermore,
> libmad
> is required.
> Protest now, or I will apply the changes in a few days.
>
> - --
> Thilo Schulz
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFFI6b7Zx4hBtWQhl4RAhAMAKCPjB3GHmyKYhORiIpnvKeC3sO//wCdHA0z
> fjY1RE1sx/xKik5ZVJLeTTs=
> =YqY3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>



-- 
-MercyKiller
================
http://lms.d3files.com
http://www.debian.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061004/80dc28da/attachment.htm>

From Dietrich_Joerg at t-online.de  Wed Oct  4 11:53:21 2006
From: Dietrich_Joerg at t-online.de (Joerg Dietrich)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 17:53:21 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>

 > I intend to add mp3 support to the svn codebase soon. It has worked 
flawlessly with EliteForce sound data
 > which is on the largest part mp3 based, so it is well tested. (x86, 
x86_64, ppc, Linux, MacOSX, Windows...)
 > ...
 > Protest now, or I will apply the changes in a few days.

No protest but some concerns here. MP3 is a heavily patented technology
and the patents are heavily defended. So this patch is very risky.
But as long as we do not include any of the decoding routines in the
source (not even to make compiling on Windows and Mac easier ;)
we should be safe.

Joerg



From stowellt at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 11:58:15 2006
From: stowellt at gmail.com (Tim Stowell)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:58:15 -0600
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <994f7fe90610040858j5b10ab2bw39492dc4911796ee@mail.gmail.com>

Taking the patent issue further, don't you have to pay a license to the MP3
patent holders to legally use their codec (even for the binaries)? Not
trying to put a damper on the integration as I think it's a great idea, just
not sure about the legalities.

On 10/4/06, Joerg Dietrich <Dietrich_Joerg at t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > I intend to add mp3 support to the svn codebase soon. It has worked
> flawlessly with EliteForce sound data
> > which is on the largest part mp3 based, so it is well tested. (x86,
> x86_64, ppc, Linux, MacOSX, Windows...)
> > ...
> > Protest now, or I will apply the changes in a few days.
>
> No protest but some concerns here. MP3 is a heavily patented technology
> and the patents are heavily defended. So this patch is very risky.
> But as long as we do not include any of the decoding routines in the
> source (not even to make compiling on Windows and Mac easier ;)
> we should be safe.
>
> Joerg
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061004/21250015/attachment.htm>

From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 12:10:44 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:10:44 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <200610041810.46697.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 04 October 2006 17:53, Joerg Dietrich wrote:
> No protest but some concerns here. MP3 is a heavily patented technology
> and the patents are heavily defended. So this patch is very risky.
> But as long as we do not include any of the decoding routines in the
> source (not even to make compiling on Windows and Mac easier ;)
> we should be safe.

The patch only makes use of libmad, doesn't actually include it.

And even if libmad is statically linked:

- From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3:
###
Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on open source 
decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop. Furthermore, while 
attempts have been made to discourage distribution of encoder binaries, 
Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not required 
to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for companies 
attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted users, allowing 
the format to grow in popularity.
###

So really, the risk seems to be only a theoretical one. xmms, mplayer, and 
alot of other well known and well-liked open source projects don't seem to 
have an issue with that.

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFI90GZx4hBtWQhl4RAknpAKC4I+zDOXE3ZYmLHcPyPHXd3ivwhgCgg1c/
Zu2OKKb9LpPcks6K3KTZjUY=
=R2Ar
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From gnuyen at gnuyen.org  Wed Oct  4 12:37:16 2006
From: gnuyen at gnuyen.org (Paul Gnuyen)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:37:16 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610041810.46697.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <4523D8F1.3070704@t-online.de>  <200610041810.46697.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <1159979836.28950.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>

That's probably iffy legal under the GPL, linking to a non-free library
like that would probably require a specific exemption from the copyright
holder.  That is a non-free library that isn't "normally distributed"
with the major components of the operating system etc.  If this patch
linked to gstreamer on linux, quicktime on mac, and whatever abstraction
windows has, you're probably in the legal clear.  Fluendo has a licensed
binary mp3 codec on linux which is free for distribution and use, so it
would be legal everywhere as well.  Also, a programming headache for a
feature with dubious usefulness.  Transcoding to vorbis is probably the
sane thing to do on those few cases where only mp3 sources are
(legally?) available.

On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 18:10 +0200, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 04 October 2006 17:53, Joerg Dietrich wrote:
> > No protest but some concerns here. MP3 is a heavily patented technology
> > and the patents are heavily defended. So this patch is very risky.
> > But as long as we do not include any of the decoding routines in the
> > source (not even to make compiling on Windows and Mac easier ;)
> > we should be safe.
> 
> The patch only makes use of libmad, doesn't actually include it.
> 
> And even if libmad is statically linked:
> 
> - From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3:
> ###
> Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on open source 
> decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop. Furthermore, while 
> attempts have been made to discourage distribution of encoder binaries, 
> Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not required 
> to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for companies 
> attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted users, allowing 
> the format to grow in popularity.
> ###
> 
> So really, the risk seems to be only a theoretical one. xmms, mplayer, and 
> alot of other well known and well-liked open source projects don't seem to 
> have an issue with that.
> 
> - -- 
> Thilo Schulz
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFFI90GZx4hBtWQhl4RAknpAKC4I+zDOXE3ZYmLHcPyPHXd3ivwhgCgg1c/
> Zu2OKKb9LpPcks6K3KTZjUY=
> =R2Ar
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 12:40:36 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:40:36 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <1159979836.28950.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610041810.46697.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1159979836.28950.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200610041840.41249.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 04 October 2006 18:37, Paul Gnuyen wrote:
> That's probably iffy legal under the GPL, linking to a non-free library
> like that would probably require a specific exemption from the copyright
> holder.  That is a non-free library that isn't "normally distributed"
> with the major components of the operating system etc.  If this patch
> linked to gstreamer on linux, quicktime on mac, and whatever abstraction
> windows has, you're probably in the legal clear.  Fluendo has a licensed
> binary mp3 codec on linux which is free for distribution and use, so it
> would be legal everywhere as well.  Also, a programming headache for a
> feature with dubious usefulness.  Transcoding to vorbis is probably the
> sane thing to do on those few cases where only mp3 sources are
> (legally?) available.

libmad is 100% GPL.

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFI+QJZx4hBtWQhl4RAnxnAJ4usRxKrZVyqh1zYo+6haNiTwMkEwCgmX5R
w/IlBB+QsC3IF1LfLhfy3vU=
=mJQ5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From gnuyen at gnuyen.org  Wed Oct  4 12:54:27 2006
From: gnuyen at gnuyen.org (Paul Gnuyen)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:54:27 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610041840.41249.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <200610041810.46697.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <1159979836.28950.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <200610041840.41249.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <1159980868.28950.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Well hells bells my bad.  

If you statically link to it you're still in bad shape though, note:
"Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not
required to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for
companies attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted
users, allowing the format to grow in popularity."

Means that people using your software will not be required to pay fees.
If you distribute this software however, or develop it you're not
protected. 

If you dynamically link it, it probably will make binary shipping a
bitch, but I'm guessing that's not the goal?  

On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 18:40 +0200, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 04 October 2006 18:37, Paul Gnuyen wrote:
> > That's probably iffy legal under the GPL, linking to a non-free library
> > like that would probably require a specific exemption from the copyright
> > holder.  That is a non-free library that isn't "normally distributed"
> > with the major components of the operating system etc.  If this patch
> > linked to gstreamer on linux, quicktime on mac, and whatever abstraction
> > windows has, you're probably in the legal clear.  Fluendo has a licensed
> > binary mp3 codec on linux which is free for distribution and use, so it
> > would be legal everywhere as well.  Also, a programming headache for a
> > feature with dubious usefulness.  Transcoding to vorbis is probably the
> > sane thing to do on those few cases where only mp3 sources are
> > (legally?) available.
> 
> libmad is 100% GPL.
> 
> - -- 
> Thilo Schulz
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFFI+QJZx4hBtWQhl4RAnxnAJ4usRxKrZVyqh1zYo+6haNiTwMkEwCgmX5R
> w/IlBB+QsC3IF1LfLhfy3vU=
> =mJQ5
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061004/14b58d92/attachment.pgp>

From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 13:01:53 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:01:53 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <1159980868.28950.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610041840.41249.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1159980868.28950.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 04 October 2006 18:54, Paul Gnuyen wrote:
> If you statically link to it you're still in bad shape though, note:
> "Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not
> required to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for
> companies attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted
> users, allowing the format to grow in popularity."
>
> Means that people using your software will not be required to pay fees.
> If you distribute this software however, or develop it you're not
> protected.

You let the important part away and now try to prove your point with that.
The very first sentence of what I quoted was:
###
Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on open source 
decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop.
###

I know this is Wikipedia and I know some information can be incorrect. I 
wonder though, the creators of xmms, mplayer, libmad, and a myriad of 
companies have decided to support it. This really is a non-issue.

> If you dynamically link it, it probably will make binary shipping a
> bitch, but I'm guessing that's not the goal?

On Linux dynamic linking is o.k. in my opinion. On windows it's not (as there 
is no package system where a user could simply install required dlls)

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFI+kDZx4hBtWQhl4RAiPtAJ9uzjdDA8KVVe2Nv0bhLfvAiLgAIACgkpgQ
XWdqog99RprW0ypULMpUoq4=
=XyY9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From gnuyen at gnuyen.org  Wed Oct  4 13:25:47 2006
From: gnuyen at gnuyen.org (Paul Gnuyen)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 10:25:47 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <200610041840.41249.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <1159980868.28950.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Xmms uses mpg123 for it's decoding which is developed in germany.
Mplayer is developed in hungary, and has always been of questionable
legality.  Their previous claim to legality was that by only
distributing the source (not binaries) and having linking from gpl
sources and proprietary ones, they were not violating the law.  Libmad
is made by underbit which has a Thomson patent license, which doesn't
transfer through the terms of the gpl and is thus of questionable
legality for anyone who distributes libmad binaries they've built
themselves.  Arguably under the terms of the gpl, this invalidates the
gpl and makes it non free.

Note that Thomson has never stated they wouldn't enforce their patent
portfolio on open-source projects, they stated they have no plans on
charging royalties to producers of non commercial mp3 software.  Since
one of John Carmack's stated wishes is that someone would take the quake
source code and release a commercial game with it, and preventing
commercial distribution is a violation of the gpl, this is of
questionable legality.  This is why redhat couldn't ship with mp3
support previously, as they were commercial software that was open
source.  

That said, it probably doesn't matter if you add it to the source and
disable it by default.  If people want it they'll enable it if they can
legally do so, it can't hurt to have a feature if people want it.  I'm
only commenting so people realize the possible legal quagmire this could
cause.

On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 19:01 +0200, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 04 October 2006 18:54, Paul Gnuyen wrote:
> > If you statically link to it you're still in bad shape though, note:
> > "Thomson has stated that individuals using free MP3 encoders are not
> > required to pay fees. Thus while patent fees have been an issue for
> > companies attempting to use MP3, they have not meaningfully impacted
> > users, allowing the format to grow in popularity."
> >
> > Means that people using your software will not be required to pay fees.
> > If you distribute this software however, or develop it you're not
> > protected.
> 
> You let the important part away and now try to prove your point with that.
> The very first sentence of what I quoted was:
> ###
> Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on open source 
> decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop.
> ###
> 
> I know this is Wikipedia and I know some information can be incorrect. I 
> wonder though, the creators of xmms, mplayer, libmad, and a myriad of 
> companies have decided to support it. This really is a non-issue.
> 
> > If you dynamically link it, it probably will make binary shipping a
> > bitch, but I'm guessing that's not the goal?
> 
> On Linux dynamic linking is o.k. in my opinion. On windows it's not (as there 
> is no package system where a user could simply install required dlls)
> 
> - -- 
> Thilo Schulz
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFFI+kDZx4hBtWQhl4RAiPtAJ9uzjdDA8KVVe2Nv0bhLfvAiLgAIACgkpgQ
> XWdqog99RprW0ypULMpUoq4=
> =XyY9
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 16:04:55 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 22:04:55 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

apt-cache search mpg123 in debian gives:

[...]
xmms - Versatile X audio player that looks like Winamp
xmms-mpg123-ja - mpeg123 plugin supported Japanese encodings for xmms
zinf-extras - Additional ncurses and command line user interfaces
mpg123 - MPEG layer 1/2/3 audio player
[...]

This software is even distributed via debian (and they surely don't have any 
license). My opinion stands. This is a non-issue :)

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFJBPqZx4hBtWQhl4RAqIPAKC/CvwxDpkn1E2jS0mVs4f2jfUygACfc8m8
H/Ubqmh0msQnpGHIDXq/Ejk=
=bzFG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Wed Oct  4 16:42:12 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 13:42:12 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>

Thilo,
If you really feel that the code is solid, and won't change much, apply 
it to the trunk, but not the rc branch. I have no qualms about mp3 
decoding support being bad (I was never concerned about patents) at this 
point, neither Tim nor Ludwig have voiced opinions for or against (I'd 
like one or both of them to do so).


About mp3 for this project in general.
I don't feel great about it, I'd rather just stick with ogg vorbis, but 
if it attracts more developers to the project, and projects using it 
like Tremulous and other mods turned stand-alone...

-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Wed Oct  4 17:24:23 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:24:23 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org>

Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> Thilo,
> If you really feel that the code is solid, and won't change much, apply 
> it to the trunk, but not the rc branch. I have no qualms about mp3 
> decoding support being bad (I was never concerned about patents) at this 
> point, neither Tim nor Ludwig have voiced opinions for or against (I'd 
> like one or both of them to do so).
> 
> 
> About mp3 for this project in general.
> I don't feel great about it, I'd rather just stick with ogg vorbis, but 
> if it attracts more developers to the project, and projects using it 
> like Tremulous and other mods turned stand-alone...

Actually, let me rescind that.
After going and getting lunch and thinking about it more, I don't think 
there is a good argument for supporting mp3 /in ioquake3 per se/.

If you want mp3, keep a patch, you can even put that patch into the 
ioquake3 website. I really want the elite force stuff in there too. I 
think we already mirror the files.

Maintain it.

I am still not very concerned about the patents, more so the extra code 
to maintain on the three major platforms ioquake3 supports. Major 
developers are using ogg vorbis already, and are very happy with it.

However, I would rather morons who are too short sighted to use ogg 
vorbis or see it as a feature transcode their mp3s to ogg vorbis or go 
out of their way to get an mp3 patch, then see that there is ogg vorbis 
support and switch to that. This points out a huge flaw in ioquake3, 
that we can't very easily support n and y feature without ruining the 
philosophy behind the stewardship.

Which is what this really is, in the end, stewardship. Lets keep it that 
way, I don't mind if people fork, but I would rather it not come to 
that. So this sort of incomplete support of mp3 may encourage people to 
use ogg vorbis, or they'll use the patch and actually hopefully learn 
about ogg vorbis on the way to the patch.

Please also keep in mind that the opinions of those without svn (write) 
access are taken into account, but not representative of the opinions of 
those with svn. I know a lot of people may like to think that they are 
part of the project, and I don't want to piss them off by correcting 
every "We..." on the list.

However, it must be made clear that this isn't a democracy. We must be 
discriminatory in order to keep the code manageable. Some of my other 
projects got "support" from developers who ended up leaving and not 
maintaining their additions (autotools on OES, for instance). I will not 
stand for that on ioquake3.

That is my thinking on the subject, my apologies for not being clear 
earlier, I'm very busy with paying work, and my memory is poor.
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From tim at ngus.net  Wed Oct  4 18:13:04 2006
From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:13:04 +0100
Subject: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	<200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	<1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	<45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
	<45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net>

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:24:23 -0700 Zachary wrote:
> However, it must be made clear that this isn't a democracy. We must
> be discriminatory in order to keep the code manageable. Some of my
> other projects got "support" from developers who ended up leaving and
> not maintaining their additions (autotools on OES, for instance). I
> will not stand for that on ioquake3.

Just for the record.

My basic opposition is that we already have Ogg Vorbis support. This is free, already works and is not /potentially/ patent encumbered. The legal details aren't really important, at best MP3 support is always (well for the next few years) going to be a legal grey area. We can argue about the intricacies of this for days, but this only goes to prove my point.

We already have a compressed audio solution in Ogg Vorbis, what is the sense in adding another (inferior) one? Having MP3 support for EF obviously makes absolute sense as the data is unavoidably in MP3 format (and already licensed). In the case of ioq3 however, there is no prior media in this format. Any potential use of MP3 support is in the future only. In my opinion it would be better to encourage future use of Ogg Vorbis instead as it does not come with any baggage and is likely the superior codec for most use cases anyway.

As a general statement it's a bad thing to be adding features with no real world gain. It introduces more code which means more bugs and more maintenance effort. It doesn't matter who takes responsibility for this maintenance, it's just a fact. If adding a feature brings little tangible benefit yet increases work load, we don't need it. Feature creep is something to be avoided.



From evan at terralab.com  Wed Oct  4 18:35:11 2006
From: evan at terralab.com (Evan Vittitow)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 18:35:11 -0400
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>	<45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org> <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net>
Message-ID: <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com>

If you do this, Mandriva will probably push Quake 3 to PLF again.


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Wed Oct  4 18:52:29 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:52:29 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>	<45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org> <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net> <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com>
Message-ID: <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>

Evan Vittitow wrote:
> If you do this, Mandriva will probably push Quake 3 to PLF again.

PLF?

And honestly I don't give a flying fuck what Mandriva does or doesn't 
do. Please however do not threaten the maintainers of ioquake3 with 
vague language.

There will be an installer for Linux, and I would prefer it be in every 
distribution. However, I am unconcerned with morons who base their 
distribution of ioquake3 solely on license issues. There are not any 
real issues with the licenses ioquake3 currently employs.
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl  Wed Oct  4 19:44:12 2006
From: kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl (Erik Kloppenburg)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:44:12 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>	<45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org> <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net> <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com> <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <4524474C.5080003@snt.utwente.nl>

Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> PLF?

Penguin Linux Force iirc. Some people who host repositories with 
'questionable' packages. Their legality is unsure etc. I thought the 
closed down though, according to their website.

Oh, good thing I googled before posting: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_Liberation_Front


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Wed Oct  4 20:17:14 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:17:14 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org> <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <200610050217.20052.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

On Wednesday 04 October 2006 23:24, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> Actually, let me rescind that.
> After going and getting lunch and thinking about it more, I don't think
> there is a good argument for supporting mp3 /in ioquake3 per se/.

I came back to this issue because the World of Padman modification may face 
this decision right now. Of course they have long ago decided to go with .ogg 
vorbis whenever possible. However - there already are a couple of musicpacks 
out there with 22khz wave files. The question now is, and I myself am not 
quite sure whether these files had mp3s as source (a developer suggested 
that). The music consists of some recordings specially made for that 
modification. If the "originals" are only available as mp3 it would not be 
very bright to transcode them to ogg.

> I am still not very concerned about the patents, more so the extra code
> to maintain on the three major platforms ioquake3 supports. Major
> developers are using ogg vorbis already, and are very happy with it.

If you look at client/snd_codec.c, you'll notice there actually is some kind 
of an API that really has been made for supporting multiple codecs _by 
design_. As a matter of fact, in the now existing source code, only one call 
registering the codec is required at all. The rest is handled in the seperate 
file snd_codec_mp3.c (like snd_codec_ogg.c).
To me it looks like a pretty elegant solution where someone really thought 
about how to make it so you can easily add support for more codecs. Would be 
a shame to let all this thinking go to waste on only 2 codecs ;)
So, the only time I think this code ever needs maintainance is if you change 
the sound codec API. If I ever get ran over by an elephant, kicking the 
relevant parts is a job of 2 minutes.

> Which is what this really is, in the end, stewardship. Lets keep it that
> way, I don't mind if people fork, but I would rather it not come to
> that. So this sort of incomplete support of mp3 may encourage people to
> use ogg vorbis, or they'll use the patch and actually hopefully learn
> about ogg vorbis on the way to the patch.

Yep, I agree with that stewardship stuff.. if it's for "education" it probably 
really is better to not support mp3.
Nevertheless, I'll attach the most recent version of the patch to this mail 
and the bugtracker. Since my original "release" on the bugtracker I had to 
change two minor things, namely to make it compile with MSVC compiler and 
outputting decoded PCM data in MSB order on ppc machines. The patch has been 
confirmed to work on all architectures (including ppc) so yes, I think this 
is mature.

-- 
Thilo Schulz
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ioquake3_mp3-rev917.diff
Type: text/x-diff
Size: 22531 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061005/1acdacfa/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061005/1acdacfa/attachment.pgp>

From zakk at timedoctor.org  Wed Oct  4 22:22:57 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 19:22:57 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610050217.20052.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org> <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org> <200610050217.20052.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <45246C81.4030807@timedoctor.org>

Thilo Schulz wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 October 2006 23:24, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
>> Actually, let me rescind that.
>> After going and getting lunch and thinking about it more, I don't think
>> there is a good argument for supporting mp3 /in ioquake3 per se/.
> 
> I came back to this issue because the World of Padman modification may face 
> this decision right now. Of course they have long ago decided to go with .ogg 
> vorbis whenever possible. However - there already are a couple of musicpacks 
> out there with 22khz wave files. The question now is, and I myself am not 
> quite sure whether these files had mp3s as source (a developer suggested 
> that). The music consists of some recordings specially made for that 
> modification. If the "originals" are only available as mp3 it would not be 
> very bright to transcode them to ogg.

Then they can use ioquake3 + your patch. More argument follows :)

>> I am still not very concerned about the patents, more so the extra code
>> to maintain on the three major platforms ioquake3 supports. Major
>> developers are using ogg vorbis already, and are very happy with it.
> 
> If you look at client/snd_codec.c, you'll notice there actually is some kind 
> of an API that really has been made for supporting multiple codecs _by 
> design_. As a matter of fact, in the now existing source code, only one call 
> registering the codec is required at all. The rest is handled in the seperate 
> file snd_codec_mp3.c (like snd_codec_ogg.c).
> To me it looks like a pretty elegant solution where someone really thought 
> about how to make it so you can easily add support for more codecs. Would be 
> a shame to let all this thinking go to waste on only 2 codecs ;)
> So, the only time I think this code ever needs maintainance is if you change 
> the sound codec API. If I ever get ran over by an elephant, kicking the 
> relevant parts is a job of 2 minutes.

I don't care. More code in SVN is more code that has to be kept track of.

>> Which is what this really is, in the end, stewardship. Lets keep it that
>> way, I don't mind if people fork, but I would rather it not come to
>> that. So this sort of incomplete support of mp3 may encourage people to
>> use ogg vorbis, or they'll use the patch and actually hopefully learn
>> about ogg vorbis on the way to the patch.
> 
> Yep, I agree with that stewardship stuff.. if it's for "education" it probably 
> really is better to not support mp3.
> Nevertheless, I'll attach the most recent version of the patch to this mail 
> and the bugtracker. Since my original "release" on the bugtracker I had to 
> change two minor things, namely to make it compile with MSVC compiler and 
> outputting decoded PCM data in MSB order on ppc machines. The patch has been 
> confirmed to work on all architectures (including ppc) so yes, I think this 
> is mature.

"Education" not so much. I would honestly prefer that you make a section 
on the website for patches not committed, which describes the 
functionality they provide and provides download links. A download 
location for the patches (in or out of svn) could be decided later, as 
long as they aren't hosted anywhere but i.o

If you are unwilling to do that, then I can, or floam, or someone else. 
However, that is right now, the only way mp3 support will be provided. I 
would also like to at some point come up with some way to better provide 
a framework specifically for external developers to sync to our tree, 
and then a magical unicorn flies in and asks if they want mp3 support 
and downloads this patch, plus whatever other ones they want, and 
applies it to their source tree along with whatever other updates they 
want from ioquake3 whenever they want.

I still haven't found that magical unicorn :(

-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From gnuyen at gnuyen.org  Thu Oct  5 03:41:52 2006
From: gnuyen at gnuyen.org (Paul Gnuyen)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:41:52 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <200610041901.55629.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <1159982747.28950.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>	<45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
	 <45242687.6040300@timedoctor.org> <20061004231304.3be9699d.tim@ngus.net>
	 <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com>  <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <1160034112.28950.55.camel@localhost.localdomain>

For the company Mandriva, it's not so much about license issues as
patent infringement which opens them up to financial consequences.
Legally they would have to get a license for the patent one way or the
other.  I think it's kind of harsh to call a company a moron for not
wanting to be sued.  Note Redhat (and I think every commercial
distribution out there) has the same policy.

On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 15:52 -0700, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> Evan Vittitow wrote:
> > If you do this, Mandriva will probably push Quake 3 to PLF again.
> 
> PLF?
> 
> And honestly I don't give a flying fuck what Mandriva does or doesn't 
> do. Please however do not threaten the maintainers of ioquake3 with 
> vague language.
> 
> There will be an installer for Linux, and I would prefer it be in every 
> distribution. However, I am unconcerned with morons who base their 
> distribution of ioquake3 solely on license issues. There are not any 
> real issues with the licenses ioquake3 currently employs.



From ludwig.nussel at suse.de  Thu Oct  5 03:50:20 2006
From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:50:20 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <200610050950.21044.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>

Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> If you really feel that the code is solid, and won't change much, apply 
> it to the trunk, but not the rc branch. I have no qualms about mp3 
> decoding support being bad (I was never concerned about patents) at this 
> point, neither Tim nor Ludwig have voiced opinions for or against (I'd 
> like one or both of them to do so).

My only concern is adding more compile time options. A binary
compiled with this patch enabled would not run on a default SUSE
Linux (and other commercial distros) due to lack of libmad. I doubt
anyone wants to ship libmad with their installer so an ioquake3 with
mp3 support would be annoying for novice users. In order to
optionally support mp3 it would be better to have sound codecs in
shared libraries and dlopen the snd_codec_t interface.

cu
Ludwig

-- 
 (o_   Ludwig Nussel
 //\   SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development
 V_/_  http://www.suse.de/




From ludwig.nussel at suse.de  Thu Oct  5 03:52:52 2006
From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:52:52 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com> <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <200610050952.52494.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>

Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> [...]
> There will be an installer for Linux, and I would prefer it be in every 
> distribution. However, I am unconcerned with morons who base their 
> distribution of ioquake3 solely on license issues. There are not any 
> real issues with the licenses ioquake3 currently employs.

code/tools has weird non-free licenses.

cu
Ludwig

-- 
 (o_   Ludwig Nussel
 //\   SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development
 V_/_  http://www.suse.de/



From zakk at timedoctor.org  Thu Oct  5 03:59:00 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:59:00 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Re: Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610050952.52494.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <4524371F.1030305@terralab.com> <45243B2D.3040207@timedoctor.org> <200610050952.52494.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>
Message-ID: <4524BB44.2000307@timedoctor.org>

Ludwig Nussel wrote:
> Zachary J. Slater wrote:
>> [...]
>> There will be an installer for Linux, and I would prefer it be in every 
>> distribution. However, I am unconcerned with morons who base their 
>> distribution of ioquake3 solely on license issues. There are not any 
>> real issues with the licenses ioquake3 currently employs.
> 
> code/tools has weird non-free licenses.
> 
> cu
> Ludwig

Well that just stinks.

-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Thu Oct  5 04:01:37 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:01:37 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <200610050950.21044.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610042204.58119.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45241CA4.7000902@timedoctor.org> <200610050950.21044.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>
Message-ID: <4524BBE1.8070906@timedoctor.org>

Ludwig Nussel wrote:
> Zachary J. Slater wrote:
>> If you really feel that the code is solid, and won't change much, apply 
>> it to the trunk, but not the rc branch. I have no qualms about mp3 
>> decoding support being bad (I was never concerned about patents) at this 
>> point, neither Tim nor Ludwig have voiced opinions for or against (I'd 
>> like one or both of them to do so).
> 
> My only concern is adding more compile time options. A binary
> compiled with this patch enabled would not run on a default SUSE
> Linux (and other commercial distros) due to lack of libmad. I doubt
> anyone wants to ship libmad with their installer so an ioquake3 with
> mp3 support would be annoying for novice users. In order to
> optionally support mp3 it would be better to have sound codecs in
> shared libraries and dlopen the snd_codec_t interface.
> 
> cu
> Ludwig

Make the pain stop :)

This is definitely not going in, we really need this negative on the 
help page, a roadmap, and then the patches page so when it gets asked, I 
can't possibly forget.

Thanks for your suggestions though, Ludwig, they are appreciated!
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Thu Oct  5 08:29:27 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:29:27 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Mp3 support patch
In-Reply-To: <45246C81.4030807@timedoctor.org>
References: <200610041420.11194.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610050217.20052.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <45246C81.4030807@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <200610051429.30787.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 05 October 2006 04:22, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> If you are unwilling to do that, then I can, or floam, or someone else.
> However, that is right now, the only way mp3 support will be provided. I
> would also like to at some point come up with some way to better provide
> a framework specifically for external developers to sync to our tree,
> and then a magical unicorn flies in and asks if they want mp3 support
> and downloads this patch, plus whatever other ones they want, and
> applies it to their source tree along with whatever other updates they
> want from ioquake3 whenever they want.

ahaha.. I get your idea. =)

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFJPqqZx4hBtWQhl4RAgK7AKCMkASI7laf+VM+HlocVPe+tJqyegCdGOSO
YbMftNmCyKYrXDq2v2XdFq4=
=tKar
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From sniffzzs at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  9 09:12:39 2006
From: sniffzzs at hotmail.com (Georg Vogel)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:12:39 +0200
Subject: sparc binaries
Message-ID: <BAY21-F17837860E696B1C2E98E92C8160@phx.gbl>

hi,

are the binaries already uploaded, 'cause I can't find them on the homepage!
Is there another to get hold of them?

Georg




From vincent at cojot.name  Mon Oct  9 09:19:20 2006
From: vincent at cojot.name (vincent at cojot.name)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:19:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [quake3] sparc binaries
In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F17837860E696B1C2E98E92C8160@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY21-F17837860E696B1C2E98E92C8160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610091518330.11448@thorbardin.lasthome.solace.krynn>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006, Georg Vogel wrote:

> hi,
>
> are the binaries already uploaded, 'cause I can't find them on the homepage!
> Is there another to get hold of them?
>
> Georg

Georg,

They're not on the homepage (I was too busy to update the web page and the 
builds). Here are some links to the current binaries:

http://quake3.icculus.org/quake3/files/ioquake3-1.34-r817-1-sparc.pkg
http://quake3.icculus.org/quake3/files/ioquake3-1.34-r817-1-sparc.pkg.md5
http://quake3.icculus.org/quake3/files/ioquake3d-1.34-r817-1-sparc.pkg
http://quake3.icculus.org/quake3/files/ioquake3d-1.34-r817-1-sparc.pkg.md5


-- 
,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,
Vincent S. Cojot, Computer Engineering. STEP project. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Comite Micro-Informatique. _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,.
Linux Xview/OpenLook resources page _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'
http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote  _.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._ coyote at NOSPAM4cojot.name

They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
Between stars - on stars where no human race is
I have it in me so much nearer home
To scare myself with my own desert places.       - Robert Frost




From zakk at timedoctor.org  Fri Oct 13 17:14:15 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:14:15 -0700
Subject: Domain name
Message-ID: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>

Folks,
I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
Or ioquake.org
Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
Any comments, ideas?
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From anders at anders1.org  Fri Oct 13 17:25:52 2006
From: anders at anders1.org (Anders Bergh)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:25:52 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>

Buy both, why not?

Domains are really cheap.

On 10/13/06, Zachary J. Slater <zakk at timedoctor.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
> Or ioquake.org
> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
> Any comments, ideas?
> --
> - Zachary J. Slater
> zakk at timedoctor.org
> zacharyslater at gmail.com
>



-- 
Anders
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061013/3ad6bb06/attachment.htm>

From zakk at timedoctor.org  Fri Oct 13 17:34:49 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:34:49 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org>

Anders Bergh wrote:
> Buy both, why not?
> 
> Domains are really cheap.

Financial reasons, I already own a few domains and I can see it getting 
more expensive.
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From thegreatfoo at gmail.com  Fri Oct 13 18:06:10 2006
From: thegreatfoo at gmail.com (Foo)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:06:10 +0100
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	 <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <ff685ffb0610131506r76dcac09l982b7cbbb43e908@mail.gmail.com>

Shortest domain always wins.

- Foo

On 10/13/06, Zachary J. Slater <zakk at timedoctor.org> wrote:
>
> Anders Bergh wrote:
> > Buy both, why not?
> >
> > Domains are really cheap.
>
> Financial reasons, I already own a few domains and I can see it getting
> more expensive.
> --
> - Zachary J. Slater
> zakk at timedoctor.org
> zacharyslater at gmail.com
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061013/1ab8e20f/attachment.htm>

From ntoronto at cs.byu.edu  Fri Oct 13 18:19:01 2006
From: ntoronto at cs.byu.edu (Neil Toronto)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:19:01 -0600
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <453010D5.7020104@cs.byu.edu>

Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> Folks,
> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
> Or ioquake.org
> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
> Any comments, ideas?

free-as-in-beer-quake3.org

Or just freequake.org. I don't think the general population will 
remember "ioquake" very well.


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Fri Oct 13 18:29:59 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:29:59 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453010D5.7020104@cs.byu.edu>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <453010D5.7020104@cs.byu.edu>
Message-ID: <45301367.5050405@timedoctor.org>

Neil Toronto wrote:
> Zachary J. Slater wrote:
>> Folks,
>> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
>> Or ioquake.org
>> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
>> Any comments, ideas?
> 
> free-as-in-beer-quake3.org
> 
> Or just freequake.org. I don't think the general population will 
> remember "ioquake" very well.

Ugh, I really hate free/openquake as a site name. It is easy, I may do 
it anyway just because it is a good idea like gameqablog.com
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From only_mortal at mac.com  Fri Oct 13 18:32:03 2006
From: only_mortal at mac.com (Mike Davis)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:32:03 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <591AC59B-0657-4A8F-8FBB-6A9C927047B7@mac.com>

ioquake3.org and the .com too if it's not too expensive. Reason  
for .com is that most browsers (at least Apple's Safari) try to guess  
the domain if the DNS resolve fails.

I do like the idea of "free-as-in-beer-quake3.org" though.

On 13 Oct 2006, at 23:14, Zachary J. Slater wrote:

> Folks,
> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
> Or ioquake.org
> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
> Any comments, ideas?
> -- 
> - Zachary J. Slater
> zakk at timedoctor.org
> zacharyslater at gmail.com



From anders at anders1.org  Fri Oct 13 18:48:27 2006
From: anders at anders1.org (Anders Bergh)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:48:27 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	 <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <976395530610131548r5ec2b2d5va25b40eda1afcc56@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, I see.

You could set up some PayPal fund perhaps, I wouldn't mind contributing with
$5 or so.

On 10/13/06, Zachary J. Slater <zakk at timedoctor.org> wrote:
>
> Anders Bergh wrote:
> > Buy both, why not?
> >
> > Domains are really cheap.
>
> Financial reasons, I already own a few domains and I can see it getting
> more expensive.
> --
> - Zachary J. Slater
> zakk at timedoctor.org
> zacharyslater at gmail.com
>



-- 
Anders
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061014/e4ac7667/attachment.htm>

From zakk at timedoctor.org  Fri Oct 13 19:13:44 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:13:44 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <976395530610131548r5ec2b2d5va25b40eda1afcc56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>	 <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>	 <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org> <976395530610131548r5ec2b2d5va25b40eda1afcc56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45301DA8.400@timedoctor.org>

Anders Bergh wrote:
> Ah, I see.
> 
> You could set up some PayPal fund perhaps, I wouldn't mind contributing 
> with
> $5 or so.

I don't want to set up a paypal thing, that is just not right.


-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From floam at sh.nu  Fri Oct 13 21:16:01 2006
From: floam at sh.nu (Aaron Gyes)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:16:01 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <45301DA8.400@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>	 <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>	 <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org> <976395530610131548r5ec2b2d5va25b40eda1afcc56@mail.gmail.com> <45301DA8.400@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <D5EA0CA6-B0B8-403B-984A-9CDDCABD214F@sh.nu>

On Oct 13, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Zachary J. Slater wrote:

> I don't want to set up a paypal thing, that is just not right.

We could always just shave three cents (about 50%) off the weekly  
wages of our sweatshop labor. Or fire that guy that makes the  
subversion revision number quadruple all of the time.

Aaron


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Fri Oct 13 22:32:44 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:32:44 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <D5EA0CA6-B0B8-403B-984A-9CDDCABD214F@sh.nu>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>	 <976395530610131425j26f22821nc1e440cee8fcd6e0@mail.gmail.com>	 <45300679.4050209@timedoctor.org> <976395530610131548r5ec2b2d5va25b40eda1afcc56@mail.gmail.com> <45301DA8.400@timedoctor.org> <D5EA0CA6-B0B8-403B-984A-9CDDCABD214F@sh.nu>
Message-ID: <45304C4C.8030809@timedoctor.org>

Aaron Gyes wrote:
> On Oct 13, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> 
>> I don't want to set up a paypal thing, that is just not right.
> 
> We could always just shave three cents (about 50%) off the weekly wages 
> of our sweatshop labor. Or fire that guy that makes the subversion 
> revision number quadruple all of the time.
> 
> Aaron

What a jerk that guy is.

-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Sat Oct 14 05:50:33 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:50:33 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <200610141150.36278.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Friday 13 October 2006 23:14, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
> Or ioquake.org
> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
> Any comments, ideas?

My vote:

[ ] ioquake.org
[x] ioquake3.org

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFMLLsZx4hBtWQhl4RAsd2AJ9chYnRU+Ap6sXDhe8aWzTss0SUDwCgzCQu
rIxOPKGHIcRiTcWJjFGqZh0=
=TkJ9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From joehill at sympatico.ca  Sat Oct 14 08:52:44 2006
From: joehill at sympatico.ca (JoeHill)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:52:44 -0400
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <200610141150.36278.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	<200610141150.36278.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <20061014085244.736a5c8b@node1.freeyourmachine.org>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:50:33 +0200
Thilo Schulz got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> [x] ioquake3.org

ditto.

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Calculon: I was all of history's great acting robots: Acting Unit 0.8,
Thespo-mat, David Duchovny!


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Sat Oct 14 10:32:23 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:32:23 +0200
Subject: Patch fixing discontinuous movement of other characters.
Message-ID: <200610141632.28267.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

Hi,

In some leagues for EliteForce, players are required to set cl_maxpackets to 
the same value as their com_maxfps setting. The reason is that if different 
amounts of user commands arrive each server frame, the speed of players as 
visualized to the others becomes unsteady as well. I have checked it in plain 
(io)quake3, the same problem exists here, too.
The standard setting for cl_maxpackets is 30, while today's hardware can get 
framerates high above 100 fps. So if you're using a popular framerate like 
125, some packets will have more, some will have less usercommands, so for 
each server frame, a client can have differing amounts of usercommands.

Here is a demonstration video visualizing the results you will get with an 
unmodified server. These demos were made at a ping of around 50ms.

http://thilo.kickchat.com/videos/usercmd-test_original.avi

My patch adds a buffer where a limited amount of usercommands can be stored.
There is an algorithm in place which tries to keep the buffer status as low as 
possible while ensuring that the server has a nearly constant rate of *valid* 
usercommands. Only if necessary (i.g. com_maxfps < sv_fps) will it duplicate 
usercommands. It looks very promising, the movement runs smoothly no matter 
which client settings are active.
However - of course there is a downside. If this feature is enabled, it will 
add some latency to user commands. The less stable the incoming rate of 
usercommands, the more latency will be added as the buffer may hold more user 
commands to compensate for missing usercommands.
Here's a demo video for the patched version:

http://thilo.kickchat.com/videos/usercmd-test_patched.avi

The patch is not well tested yet, I'd like to have a chance to check on 
playing when you have a higher ping.
The rate of prediction errors is not much higher than without this stuff, as 
it will only add duplicate user commands as a last resort, which practically 
doesn't happen if the rate is stable and the algorithm has swung in.

To enable the feature, use sv_antiWarp 1 on the server. You can toggle the var 
to compare movement with/without this antiwarp feature.
Have fun!

-- 
Thilo Schulz
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ioquake3-rev935_usercmdrate.diff
Type: text/x-diff
Size: 12690 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061014/ab726db1/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061014/ab726db1/attachment.pgp>

From lmsmercykiller at gmail.com  Sat Oct 14 11:02:42 2006
From: lmsmercykiller at gmail.com (Stephen Youts)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:02:42 -0500
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <20061014085244.736a5c8b@node1.freeyourmachine.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	 <200610141150.36278.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	 <20061014085244.736a5c8b@node1.freeyourmachine.org>
Message-ID: <ec5a04ba0610140802t383e4855n32968039e7e565d7@mail.gmail.com>

What about ioq3.org?

On 10/14/06, JoeHill <joehill at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:50:33 +0200
> Thilo Schulz got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:
>
> > [x] ioquake3.org
>
> ditto.
>
> --
> JoeHill / RLU #282046
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Calculon: I was all of history's great acting robots: Acting Unit 0.8,
> Thespo-mat, David Duchovny!
>



-- 
-MercyKiller
================
http://lms.d3files.com
http://www.debian.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061014/fdb3d086/attachment.htm>

From mrd at alkemio.org  Sat Oct 14 12:12:55 2006
From: mrd at alkemio.org (Matthew R. Dempsky)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:12:55 -0500
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org>

On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 02:14:15PM -0700, Zachary J. Slater wrote:
> I'm considering buying ioquake3.org
> Or ioquake.org
> Or something just to further increase the recognition ioquake3 gets.
> Any comments, ideas?

I'm curious what the perceived benefit is.  id doesn't own quake3.org
or quake3.com (maybe they did once?).  If you google for ``ioquake3''
or ``ioq3'', the current web site is the first hit.  (Well, not quite
for ioq3, but close enough.)

Heck, just google for ``quake 3'' and icculus.org is on the first page
as well.


From kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl  Sat Oct 14 12:22:07 2006
From: kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl (Erik Kloppenburg)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:22:07 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org>
Message-ID: <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>

Matthew R. Dempsky wrote:
> I'm curious what the perceived benefit is.

Well, it makes it more clear that it's not "Icculus Quake 3", but a 
product of it own :) Having your own domain just adds some to your 
status imho.



From demodevil at gmail.com  Sat Oct 14 13:35:52 2006
From: demodevil at gmail.com (Slash)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:35:52 -0400
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	 <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org>
	 <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <e2d917a60610141035k61bb70d6oe738069d4ff0196@mail.gmail.com>

I vote yes to all domains mentioned so far. :)

-Slash


From mrd at alkemio.org  Sat Oct 14 22:30:57 2006
From: mrd at alkemio.org (Matthew R. Dempsky)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:30:57 -0500
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org> <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org>

On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 06:22:07PM +0200, Erik Kloppenburg wrote:
> Well, it makes it more clear that it's not "Icculus Quake 3", but a 
> product of it own :)

If the point is to distance the project from icculus.org, why stick
with the name ``ioquake3''?  Will the ``io'' prefix be retconned to
mean for something else?

> Having your own domain just adds some to your status imho.

If you say so.  I doubt anyone is more likely to use the software if
they can download it from ioquake3.org instead of icculus.org/quake3.

That said, I am really indifferent.  It's not my money.  ;-)


From kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl  Sat Oct 14 22:56:54 2006
From: kloppenburg at snt.utwente.nl (Erik Kloppenburg)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 04:56:54 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org> <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl> <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org>
Message-ID: <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>

Matthew R. Dempsky wrote:
> If the point is to distance the project from icculus.org, why stick
> with the name ``ioquake3''?  Will the ``io'' prefix be retconned to
> mean for something else?

Good point. Another name might be nicer. But then everything has to be 
renamed again ;) Dunno how ioquake3-devs feel about that.

I didnt like the freequake-idea cause it gives the false assumption that 
you can get full quake3 for free on the site. Openquake might be a 
little confusing with openarena, but I like it a lot :)

I do realise Im not a dev, so I have nothing to say in this matter. I 
hope it's okay to give my opinion though.


From mrd at alkemio.org  Sun Oct 15 00:01:16 2006
From: mrd at alkemio.org (Matthew R. Dempsky)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 23:01:16 -0500
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org> <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl> <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org> <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <20061015040116.GC1881@odin.dempsky.org>

On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 04:56:54AM +0200, Erik Kloppenburg wrote:
> Matthew R. Dempsky wrote:
> >If the point is to distance the project from icculus.org, why stick
> >with the name ``ioquake3''?  Will the ``io'' prefix be retconned to
> >mean for something else?
> 
> Good point. Another name might be nicer. But then everything has to be 
> renamed again ;) Dunno how ioquake3-devs feel about that.

To be clear, I like the name ``ioquake3'' and see no reason to change
it or to distance the project from icculus.org.  Just continue
producing high quality Quake 3 code, and people will use it.

A rocket launcher by any other name...


From joehill at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 15 00:22:44 2006
From: joehill at sympatico.ca (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:22:44 -0400
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <20061015040116.GC1881@odin.dempsky.org>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org>
	<20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org>
	<45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl>
	<20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org>
	<4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>
	<20061015040116.GC1881@odin.dempsky.org>
Message-ID: <20061015002244.4c476fad@node1.freeyourmachine.org>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 23:01:16 -0500
Matthew R. Dempsky got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> A rocket launcher by any other name...

:)

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fry: "I'm not prejudiced." Bender: "Ah, save it for the cross-burning, Adolf."


From floam at sh.nu  Sun Oct 15 00:53:32 2006
From: floam at sh.nu (Aaron Gyes)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:53:32 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org> <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl> <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org> <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <16345EF5-3436-4DF3-B27A-6A8AE28215A8@sh.nu>

I am pretty sure there are no plans to distance the project away  
from  icculus.org. I think the only issue was simplicity and  
rememberability. This is an icculus.org project just like the rest, I  
am pretty sure.

On Oct 14, 2006, at 7:56 PM, Erik Kloppenburg wrote:

> Matthew R. Dempsky wrote:
>> If the point is to distance the project from icculus.org, why stick
>> with the name ``ioquake3''?  Will the ``io'' prefix be retconned to
>> mean for something else?
>
> Good point. Another name might be nicer. But then everything has to  
> be renamed again ;) Dunno how ioquake3-devs feel about that.
>
> I didnt like the freequake-idea cause it gives the false assumption  
> that you can get full quake3 for free on the site. Openquake might  
> be a little confusing with openarena, but I like it a lot :)
>
> I do realise Im not a dev, so I have nothing to say in this matter.  
> I hope it's okay to give my opinion though.


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Sun Oct 15 01:09:11 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:09:11 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain name
In-Reply-To: <16345EF5-3436-4DF3-B27A-6A8AE28215A8@sh.nu>
References: <453001A7.5050407@timedoctor.org> <20061014161255.GA1881@odin.dempsky.org> <45310EAF.9020900@snt.utwente.nl> <20061015023057.GB1881@odin.dempsky.org> <4531A376.8020801@snt.utwente.nl> <16345EF5-3436-4DF3-B27A-6A8AE28215A8@sh.nu>
Message-ID: <4531C277.5090906@timedoctor.org>

Aaron Gyes wrote:
> I am pretty sure there are no plans to distance the project away from  
> icculus.org. I think the only issue was simplicity and rememberability. 
> This is an icculus.org project just like the rest, I am pretty sure.
> 

That is exactly correct. I simply want more recognition for this project 
itself. Which will make it easier to, say, host EF, etc...

-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Sun Oct 15 14:27:02 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 11:27:02 -0700
Subject: mp3 support redux, and patches
Message-ID: <45327D76.6070509@timedoctor.org>

http://icculus.org/quake3/?page=patches

as it is right now, to not clutter up the svn I've put the actual patch 
files in http://icculus.org/~zakk/ioq3_patches/

This will get symlinked.
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From panter at gmx.de  Wed Oct 18 05:37:47 2006
From: panter at gmx.de (panter at gmx.de)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:37:47 +0200
Subject: dedicated server question
Message-ID: <20061018093747.262380@gmx.net>

hi,
does a dedicated server just needs bsp files to run maps (pure=0)?

-- 
Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! 
Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer


From kfaust at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 09:59:32 2006
From: kfaust at gmail.com (Kaptin Faust)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:59:32 -0500
Subject: [quake3] dedicated server question
In-Reply-To: <20061018093747.262380@gmx.net>
References: <20061018093747.262380@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <51f467610610190659t1fe2a961w39be657c5479ad7b@mail.gmail.com>

You'd still need the game logic...

On 10/18/06, panter at gmx.de <panter at gmx.de> wrote:
> hi,
> does a dedicated server just needs bsp files to run maps (pure=0)?
>
> --
> Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
> Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer
>


From joehill at sympatico.ca  Sat Oct 21 22:10:44 2006
From: joehill at sympatico.ca (JoeHill)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:10:44 -0400
Subject: [quake3] No 'console'
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200608160949.AA49160009@xipher.us>
References: <20060816022004.00a9905e.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<44E2D55C.5080707@momo.servegame.org>
	<20060816043813.2b9b1a10.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<WorldClient-F200608160949.AA49160009@xipher.us>
Message-ID: <20061021221044.0a942af9@node1.freeyourmachine.org>

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:49:16 -0500
Joshua Hoppes got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> You won't see a prompt, but it is there. After it scrolls by with all the
> server start up feedback, you should be sitting there with just a cursor.
> Type something in and hit enter (like say hello) and in game it will be
> something along the lines of "server: hello".
> 
> One suggestion I can make is instead of backgrounding the server, you can
> start it in a screen session.

Been meaning to ask about this for awhile. I'm running my dedicated server from
within screen, as you guys suggested. Rocks.

One thing though, I cannot seem to enter any commands. Everything is simply
printed as a broadcast. For example:

/status
broadcast: print "server: /status"

Can I only do this through rcon, ie. ingame?

I know there is probably something obvious I'm missing so feel free to wallop
me ;)

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Final Curtain Old Actors' Home


From joehill at sympatico.ca  Sat Oct 21 23:32:18 2006
From: joehill at sympatico.ca (JoeHill)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:32:18 -0400
Subject: [quake3] No 'console'
In-Reply-To: <20061021221044.0a942af9@node1.freeyourmachine.org>
References: <20060816022004.00a9905e.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<44E2D55C.5080707@momo.servegame.org>
	<20060816043813.2b9b1a10.joehill@sympatico.ca>
	<WorldClient-F200608160949.AA49160009@xipher.us>
	<20061021221044.0a942af9@node1.freeyourmachine.org>
Message-ID: <20061021233218.6ef9d3f6@node1.freeyourmachine.org>

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:10:44 -0400
JoeHill got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> I know there is probably something obvious I'm missing so feel free to wallop
> me ;)

Yup. Don't need the '/' in front of the command:

status
map: q3sctf_hs
num score ping name            lastmsg address               qport rate
--- ----- ---- --------------- ------- --------------------- ----- -----
  0    30    0 Wrack               100 bot                       0 16384
  1    30    0 Lucy                100 bot                       0 16384
  2    26    0 Daemia              100 bot                       0 16384
  3    28    0 Uriel                50 bot                       0 16384
  4    27    0 Mynx                 50 bot                       0 16384
  5    19    0 Bitterman            50 bot                       0 16384

Cool.

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Leela: Ah, maybe they're right, maybe Nibbler is dumb. Fry: Don't listen to
them, Leela. People said I was dumb but I proved them!


From zakk at timedoctor.org  Tue Oct 24 00:54:40 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary J. Slater)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:54:40 -0700
Subject: Domain Name Redux
Message-ID: <453D9C90.10107@timedoctor.org>

I bought ioquake3.org

I also accidentally bought ioquake.org, didn't realize I had forgotten 
the 3 until I'd gone to set the name servers :(
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From SHolmes at activision.com  Tue Oct 24 02:54:18 2006
From: SHolmes at activision.com (Holmes, Steven)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:54:18 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain Name Redux
Message-ID: <1D0EB64A20097F44BADBF4C2AA6A407B01931764@AVSMOEXCL01.activision.com>

Nice.

Now just add ragdoll to the game and you're all set.  =)

(Hey, I can wish can't I?)

Good luck.


Steve Holmes
Associate Producer
ACTIVISION
310 255 2718 Office
310 403 1380 cell

-----Original Message-----
From: Zachary J. Slater [mailto:zakk at timedoctor.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:55 PM
To: quake3 at icculus.org
Subject: [quake3] Domain Name Redux

I bought ioquake3.org

I also accidentally bought ioquake.org, didn't realize I had forgotten 
the 3 until I'd gone to set the name servers :(
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Thu Oct 26 14:20:31 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:20:31 +0200
Subject: Unsatisfactory handling of sound falloff and source culling in ioquake3
Message-ID: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

While OpenAL has a huge impact on sound quality and definitely improves sound 
very much, there are problems that have been introduced with the support of 
it.
The first problem is a bad default value for s_alRolloff variable which is set 
to 0.8. Take a big map, put one player on one end of it, put another one in 
line of sight on the opposite side of the map and make one player jump. You 
will hear him jumping very loudly even though there's a distance that would 
translate in reality to maybe 200 yards - simply unrealistic and not realized 
like that with the original sound.
The second problem is that there doesnt seem to be any culling of sound 
sources if they exceed a certain distance (except for when there are too many 
sounds played.). Currently, you can clearly hear sources for multiple times 
the distance of the original sound, often even if the direct line of sight is 
obstructed by brushes. This effectively gives you similar advantages to a 
wallhack.
I'd like to change this behaviour to a more realistic one and cheat protect 
the variable s_alRolloff.

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFQPxxZx4hBtWQhl4RAnAIAKDH78iEs1XeR7a9IJ+XlZnGNUh19gCg3/Fv
JlE4k7i6i5PTlVAjHcYjZJE=
=4sxw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Fri Oct 27 12:58:11 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:58:11 +0200
Subject: [quake3] Unsatisfactory handling of sound falloff and source culling in ioquake3
In-Reply-To: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <200610271858.17107.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

On Thursday 26 October 2006 20:20, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> I'd like to change this behaviour to a more realistic one and cheat protect
> the variable s_alRolloff.

I have done some tinkering and made sounds that are too far away completely 
inaudible. This is the original behaviour so it won't give you unfair 
advantages over other players.
Please try out the attached patch and tell me what you think.
There are four variables to play around with now when you start maps with 
devmap (otherwise they're cheat protected).

- s_alRolloff has been changed from 0.8 to 3 which makes for a quicker sound 
falloff.
- s_alMaxDistance has been introduced that gives the distance from where on   
the gain gets scaled linearly to 0
- s_alGraceDistance is new and is the length where this scale to 0 happens
- s_alMinDistance is unchanged but affects the way sound gain changes as well. 

Feel free to test for various settings and if you think the default ones from 
this patch should be changed, tell me. I'd like settings that don't differ 
too much from the original, though.

-- 
Thilo Schulz
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ioquake3-rv956_scale_gain.diff
Type: text/x-diff
Size: 12365 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061027/e4c74728/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061027/e4c74728/attachment.pgp>

From zakk at timedoctor.org  Sun Oct 29 00:59:41 2006
From: zakk at timedoctor.org (Zachary Slater)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:59:41 -0700
Subject: [quake3] Domain Name Redux
In-Reply-To: <1D0EB64A20097F44BADBF4C2AA6A407B01931764@AVSMOEXCL01.activision.com>
References: <1D0EB64A20097F44BADBF4C2AA6A407B01931764@AVSMOEXCL01.activision.com>
Message-ID: <4544353D.2080903@timedoctor.org>

Holmes, Steven wrote:
> Nice.
> 
> Now just add ragdoll to the game and you're all set.  =)
> 
> (Hey, I can wish can't I?)
> 
> Good luck.

Okay, name servers are set up (kthx2u icculus!)

It should start resolving soon. Then we load it up with hardcore ragdoll 
porno, woo!
-- 
- Zachary J. Slater
zakk at timedoctor.org
zacharyslater at gmail.com


From joehill at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 29 01:19:24 2006
From: joehill at sympatico.ca (JoeHill)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:19:24 -0400
Subject: [quake3] Domain Name Redux
In-Reply-To: <4544353D.2080903@timedoctor.org>
References: <1D0EB64A20097F44BADBF4C2AA6A407B01931764@AVSMOEXCL01.activision.com>
	<4544353D.2080903@timedoctor.org>
Message-ID: <20061029011924.46cf5867@node1.freeyourmachine.org>

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:59:41 -0700
Zachary Slater got an infinite number of monkeys to type out:

> Then we load it up with hardcore ragdoll porno, woo!

How did you know...? ;)

-- 
JoeHill / RLU #282046
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Hey, sexy mama. Wanna kill all the humans?" -Bender


From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Mon Oct 30 13:16:48 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:16:48 +0100
Subject: [quake3] Unsatisfactory handling of sound falloff and source culling in ioquake3
In-Reply-To: <200610271858.17107.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610271858.17107.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <200610301916.51120.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Friday 27 October 2006 18:58, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> Feel free to test for various settings and if you think the default ones
> from this patch should be changed, tell me. I'd like settings that don't
> differ too much from the original, though.

If there are no comments on this I'll commit these changes tomorrow.

- -- 
Thilo Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFRkGTZx4hBtWQhl4RAg3RAJ9diBJqZdh3KLD3ZQ7PjRN5I1UvXgCfZt+9
UrITimb9tlSiIqbS2e0hvyo=
=Qa1c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From tjw at webteam.net  Mon Oct 30 14:10:50 2006
From: tjw at webteam.net (Tony J. White)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:10:50 -0600
Subject: win_allowAltTab
Message-ID: <20061030191050.GV14468@morbo.webteam.net>


https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2776

I haven't been able to figure out the incompatability issues with some
drivers (or hardware).  However, this is a very useful feature for
those who can use it.

The latest patch adds this win_allowAltTab cvar, but has it disabled
by default.

Does anyone have an objection to me committing this?

-Tony



From tim at ngus.net  Mon Oct 30 14:25:34 2006
From: tim at ngus.net (Tim Angus)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:25:34 +0000
Subject: Unsatisfactory handling of sound falloff and source culling in
 ioquake3
In-Reply-To: <200610301916.51120.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	<200610271858.17107.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
	<200610301916.51120.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <20061030192534.37d21250.tim@ngus.net>

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:16:48 +0100 Thilo wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Friday 27 October 2006 18:58, Thilo Schulz wrote:
> > Feel free to test for various settings and if you think the default
> > ones from this patch should be changed, tell me. I'd like settings
> > that don't differ too much from the original, though.
> 
> If there are no comments on this I'll commit these changes tomorrow.

I'm slightly worried that you're treating the symptom here as opposed
to addressing the cause. Or my system at least the distance model
defaults to AL_INVERSE_DISTANCE_CLAMPED. Perhaps
AL_LINEAR_DISTANCE_CLAMPED would be better? Certainly much more like
what you've done with this patch.

The fact that we don't explicitly set the distance model anywhere (with
alDistanceModel) is probably most of the problem here. It would
certainly explain why the attenuation is apparently fine for some
people and horrible for others.

Have a look at
http://www.openal.org/openal_webstf/specs/OpenAL11Specification.pdf for
details.

> - -- 
> Thilo Schulz
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFFRkGTZx4hBtWQhl4RAg3RAJ9diBJqZdh3KLD3ZQ7PjRN5I1UvXgCfZt+9
> UrITimb9tlSiIqbS2e0hvyo=
> =Qa1c
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Any chance you could use mime encoding for PGP signatures
(application/pgp-signature) ? Just a pet peeve of mine :p.



From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Mon Oct 30 15:41:06 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:41:06 +0100
Subject: [quake3] Re: Unsatisfactory handling of sound falloff and source culling in ioquake3
In-Reply-To: <20061030192534.37d21250.tim@ngus.net>
References: <200610262020.33621.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <200610301916.51120.arny@ats.s.bawue.de> <20061030192534.37d21250.tim@ngus.net>
Message-ID: <200610302141.08439.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

On Monday 30 October 2006 20:25, Tim Angus wrote:
> I'm slightly worried that you're treating the symptom here as opposed
> to addressing the cause. Or my system at least the distance model
> defaults to AL_INVERSE_DISTANCE_CLAMPED. Perhaps
> AL_LINEAR_DISTANCE_CLAMPED would be better? Certainly much more like
> what you've done with this patch.

I am aware of these distance models, but have decided to stay with the default 
one in the patch for these two reasons:
- As of now, ioquake3 only uses the 1.0 openal specification which is nice for 
compatibility
- The inverse distance model is more realistic if seen physically.

I am not quite sure which distance model it uses in original quake3, but there 
you'll see that there is a very sudden dropoff of sound volume as soon as you 
reach a certain distance from the sound source. My patch does this a bit more 
gracefully with a nearly linear decrease only at the end of maxdistance.

>
> The fact that we don't explicitly set the distance model anywhere (with
> alDistanceModel) is probably most of the problem here. It would
> certainly explain why the attenuation is apparently fine for some
> people and horrible for others.

I have had several reports from Windows users of my Eliteforce builds where 
users would hear everything extremely quietly. Putting up all sound sliders 
in windows wouldn't help so maybe this is the reason for this.

> Any chance you could use mime encoding for PGP signatures
> (application/pgp-signature) ? Just a pet peeve of mine :p.

Will do.

-- 
Thilo Schulz
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061030/f87b6a75/attachment.pgp>

From arny at ats.s.bawue.de  Tue Oct 31 05:40:14 2006
From: arny at ats.s.bawue.de (Thilo Schulz)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:40:14 +0100
Subject: Fwd: RE: [Openal] Null Pointer crash in Linux openal
Message-ID: <200610311140.21139.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>

Hi,

Parts from a posting on the OpenAL mailing list:
-------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: [Openal] Null Pointer crash in Linux openal
Date: Tuesday 31 October 2006 10:25
From: "Sven Panne" <sven.panne at benqmobile.com>
To: "Thilo Schulz" <arny at ats.s.bawue.de>, openal at opensource.creative.com

One minor point: The default dynamic OpenAL library ioquake3 tries to
load is "libopenal.so.0", but the trunk has a major version of 1
nowadays. For ioquake3's purposes these are compatible, and in general I
propose to drop the major version number from the filename when
dlopening OpenAL. I know that the exact name can be changed via a
configuration file, but running out-of-the-box with a recent OpenAL
version would be nice.

Cheers,
   S.

-------------------------------------------------------

Should this be done for ioquake3?

-- 
Thilo Schulz
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://icculus.org/pipermail/quake3/attachments/20061031/3e7a4e75/attachment.pgp>

From ludwig.nussel at suse.de  Tue Oct 31 06:24:01 2006
From: ludwig.nussel at suse.de (Ludwig Nussel)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:24:01 +0100
Subject: [quake3] Fwd: RE: [Openal] Null Pointer crash in Linux openal
In-Reply-To: <200610311140.21139.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
References: <200610311140.21139.arny@ats.s.bawue.de>
Message-ID: <200610311224.01624.ludwig.nussel@suse.de>

Thilo Schulz wrote:
> Parts from a posting on the OpenAL mailing list:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: RE: [Openal] Null Pointer crash in Linux openal
> Date: Tuesday 31 October 2006 10:25
> From: "Sven Panne" <sven.panne at benqmobile.com>
> To: "Thilo Schulz" <arny at ats.s.bawue.de>, openal at opensource.creative.com
> 
> One minor point: The default dynamic OpenAL library ioquake3 tries to
> load is "libopenal.so.0", but the trunk has a major version of 1
> nowadays. For ioquake3's purposes these are compatible, and in general I
> propose to drop the major version number from the filename when
> dlopening OpenAL. I know that the exact name can be changed via a
> configuration file, but running out-of-the-box with a recent OpenAL
> version would be nice.
> 
> Cheers,
>    S.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Should this be done for ioquake3?

No. As I wrote on the openal list we could try to open the new
SONAME and implement a fallback to the old SONAME.

cu
Ludwig

-- 
 (o_   Ludwig Nussel
 //\   SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Development
 V_/_  http://www.suse.de/