[quake3] MD4 support in ioq3 as a patch?

[Thilo Schulz]

On Monday 18 December 2006 16:16, monk at rq3.com wrote:
> MD4 support via EF.  I'm not sure I understand.  You mention MDR as being
> the same thing as MD4, but the information I got seems to disagree?  In
> fact the information I have to the contrary I got from the very same site
> you pointed me to:

In q_files.h, compare the structures for the MDR stuff and id's original MD4 
stuff. You will notice that they are nearly identical. So yes, MDR is the 
same as MD4 except for some minor differences.

> "The mdr file is a compressed collection of several md3 files."

That information is wrong then. It is a skeletal animation format.

> I didn't send the MD4 email out to personally attack your work on EF or
> IOQ3 and I'm sorry if you took it that way.  It was not my intent and I
> was only going on the information I had at hand.  I mention this only
> because you seem to be taking it as a personal attack?

TBH.. I fail to see how one can come to the conclusion from my posting that I 
judged your first email as a personal attack. This simply is not the case.

> > There should be only one system that most people will agree on. And that
> > is the system where best modelling and animation support exists for.
>
> Maybe, but I'm more of the thought of offering choice.  If someone has the
> option to choose what fits them best, why make it harder for them by only
> endorsing one 'official' format?

This is not ioquake3's way. The official project policy is not to have too 
much code in there that needs to be maintained.
This is also the reason why mp3 support is only there as a patch.

> I suppose part of the problem is that there's no way for a layman like me
> to look at the implemented features at:
>
> http://www.ioquake3.org/?page=status

Hmm.. maybe it should be included in the feature list.

> As stated, the other tool on the page, skl2md4, apparently has preliminary
> support for working with HL and HL2 SML/MDL files.  Get that
> tweaked/fixed/completed and that opens up all the tools and plugins made
> for the HUGE HL/HL2 artist community.  Heck, you might even be able to
> modify that code to import HL/HL2 files directly into the MD4 renderer on
> the fly.

Yes ok, that is a plus for Gongo's stuff.

> I am sad you're viewing this as an MD4 versus MDR thing.  If someone got
> MD4 working as an unsupported "patch" for IOQ3 to be posted at:
>
> http://www.ioquake3.org/?page=patches
>
> ...you'd be willing to take your stuff out of IOQ3?  Why? 

Why? Because I simply do not see this as an MD4 versus Thilo thing. If MD4 is 
the better solution, there is no question, MDR should be kicked out. I didn't 
develop this stuff for the sake of a new model format but just needed it for 
my EliteForce project and back then I thought ioquake3 could make use of a 
finished MD4 support so I submitted a patch. I wasn't even aware of Gongo's 
work back then.

> "Sorry to say it, but at the moment I am not particularly interested."

Read this line together with the context that I supplied in my first answer. I 
was saying that I am not interested in doing any work on this stuff because I 
have other things in my mind right now and the MDR stuff just works.

> Gongo's MD4 work seems, to me, to still be one of the most promising
> solutions to the "get more artists to work on Q3-based projects" problem
> that I have run into over the years.  Hopefully someone on this list will
> have enough interest to finish 'er off.  Either way, I am also looking
> anywhere else I can for interested parties.  Man, used to be you could
> find a coder willing to work for mountain dew... ;)

It maybe really is promising. My point is: If someone writes a patch that 
applies cleanly to ioquake3's codebase, it has a higher chance of getting 
integrated to ioquake3 than if someone just requests this feature, which is 
almost zero in the latter case. In the end, Zakk or Timbo decide over its 
inclusion.
If it is to be included, we need to be sure that the code for it is 
maintained, reasonably clean and well worked out.
So and before and if you write an answer, keep in mind: I'm neither angry, nor 
sad nor anything else. I'm just stating the things the way they are :)

-- 
Thilo Schulz
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